Author Topic: The Butterfly Effect  (Read 11997 times)

Baldur

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Re: The Butterfly Effect
« Reply #90 on: October 02, 2006, 09:55:01 am »
....and yet you are a human and assume like a human.

Xordan

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Re: The Butterfly Effect
« Reply #91 on: October 02, 2006, 10:10:16 am »
Math is based on assumption.  Human observations are value statements prone to bias.

No, math can be proved. There is no assumption except in induction, which ends with proof that the assumption is true or false.

Datruth

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Re: The Butterfly Effect
« Reply #92 on: October 02, 2006, 10:26:46 am »
Like it or not, but we do rely on the little charges in our brain that tells us something is right or not.

If we didn't, we couldn't distinguish truth from fact.

So you are left with 2 choices.

Trust your own intellect.

Or Not.

If you don't, you can't prove anything, because again you are using your brain which is at fault.

I choose to trust my judgement and if it isn't logical, i won't take it into account.

And through such logic and wisdom humans invented math, biology, and physics. :thumbup:


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zanzibar

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Re: The Butterfly Effect
« Reply #93 on: October 02, 2006, 02:25:21 pm »
....and yet you are a human and assume like a human.

So?  How does that go against what I said?


Like it or not, but we do rely on the little charges in our brain that tells us something is right or not.

If we didn't, we couldn't distinguish truth from fact.

So you are left with 2 choices.

Trust your own intellect.

Or Not.

If you don't, you can't prove anything, because again you are using your brain which is at fault.

I choose to trust my judgement and if it isn't logical, i won't take it into account.

And through such logic and wisdom humans invented math, biology, and physics. :thumbup:


~~Datruth



People used to agree that the world is flat.



Humans will always be biased, imperfect, socially driven creatures.
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miLosh

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Re: The Butterfly Effect
« Reply #94 on: October 02, 2006, 03:04:04 pm »
People used to agree that the world is flat.
and it where humans who discovered that it isnt. by watching, not by math. infact i believe it was mathematically expressed that earth has to be in the center of the universe. so, it was the common sense of one particular human who proved otherwise. the world couldnt be flat if ships seem to go "under" the horizon when sailing away from the coast. likewise gallileo proved by _observation_ that not everything was circling around earth, as he saw the moons of jupiter to circle around it.

im glad you posted that statement of yours, for it proves exactly my point that theories seemed to be right because of lack of knowledge and proved to be wrong by simple observations combined with common sense ;)

Humans will always be biased, imperfect, socially driven creatures.
you have quite a pessimistic view of humans - hope you dont forget that yourself is one ;)

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zanzibar

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Re: The Butterfly Effect
« Reply #95 on: October 02, 2006, 03:45:32 pm »
It's not a pessimistic view of things, and I don't see why you would say "hope you dont forget that yourself is one".
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miLosh

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Re: The Butterfly Effect
« Reply #96 on: October 02, 2006, 04:08:38 pm »
well you say, "Humans will always be biased, imperfect, socially driven creatures." - that sounds to me as if this was something bad and should (be) change(d). i mean, what would be a perfect, unbiased, non-socially driven creature to you? define perfect or unbiased for that matter. a borg might fit that describtions but you hopefully agree with me that borgs are far away from being humans. but if i take the opposite of every adjectiv you used for the description of humans, i end up with the description of a borg.

as i said, it "sounds" to me like you want humans to be changed. i believe you are going to tell me know that this is not the case, that humans simply are the way they are and to conterweight our "failures" we should put our faith in science. as an answer to that, let me quote from System of a Down:

Quote
Making two possibilities a reality,
Predicting the future of things we all know,
Fighting off the diseased programming
Of centuries, centuries, centuries, centuries.

Science fails to recognize the single most
Potent element of human existence




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zanzibar

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Re: The Butterfly Effect
« Reply #97 on: October 02, 2006, 04:25:35 pm »
You're being very silly.  I never said that humans should become like the borg.  All I'm saying is that HUMAN EXISTENCE is inherently subjective.
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Datruth

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Re: The Butterfly Effect
« Reply #98 on: October 03, 2006, 11:27:35 am »
You're being very silly.  I never said that humans should become like the borg.  All I'm saying is that HUMAN EXISTENCE is inherently subjective.

And yet here you are on the interent, having your words spread to the entire globe, with the power to research any topic at the palms of your fingertips.

We are stupid little creatures arn't we :woot: :thumbup: :whistling:

~~Datruth
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zanzibar

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Re: The Butterfly Effect
« Reply #99 on: October 03, 2006, 05:09:53 pm »
You're being very silly.  I never said that humans should become like the borg.  All I'm saying is that HUMAN EXISTENCE is inherently subjective.

And yet here you are on the interent, having your words spread to the entire globe, with the power to research any topic at the palms of your fingertips.

We are stupid little creatures arn't we :woot: :thumbup: :whistling:

~~Datruth


What the heck are you going on about now?
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HarenaAbdolor

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Re: The Butterfly Effect
« Reply #100 on: October 03, 2006, 05:44:29 pm »
The Butterfly Effect 2, the movie, was launched these weeks, and I really had to see it, since the first one sure was very good. Impressive movie, as good as the original. I won't enter in details, I'll let the movie to be a surprize for who didn't see it yet. Though, what I want to talk about, is the main theory from which all starts. The butterfly effect, that is a more common referrence to the "famous" chaos theory.

In meteorology, the idea says that the flapping of a butterfly's wing will create a disturbance that in the chaotic motion of the atmosphere will become amplified eventually to change the large scale atmospheric motion, so that the long term behavior becomes impossible to forecast. The small wings of a butterfly can create a tornado on the other side of the world?

For more information I suggest going here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory

Since I started talking about the movie, I wanted to start a discussion about this theory, and its connection with shaping time. If we manage to go back in time, and we'll eventually change our past, how much will it matter for our future? And, in what way?

In the movies, every change would have had catastrophic "replies" in the future...

As a few questions, do you believe it's possible to go back in time? Can we change something, and have a different future? Because, some religions might say it's possible, but whatever we'll change, it won't matter in the present/future, because some things are just made to happen that way. Uhh, true? Destiny? Maybe not.

My own opinion would be, that if we can go back and change something, it will of course alter the future, though, what it matters, is that we can shape our every moment. Destiny? Neah.

I miss the "smart" discussions in here, oh, greetings!

:love:

 ::|

It wouldn't be probable that a butterfly would cause a tornado on the other side of the world.  I say this for a few reasons.

If the resulting event caused by the action of the sourse were proportionate, then the distance and scale of the reaction would have to be proportionate.  What I'm trying to say is that the butterfly fluttering it's wings (If not counteracted by an outside force) would have to follow the principles of logical growth.  The force would expand at a set rate lets say x2 for the sake of arguement.  If you put that with distance and say 1 was the original force of the fluttering and each graduation after that progressed per every inch (hypothetically), than it would be x2 for 2 inches x3 for 3 and so on and so forth.  It would then be logical to say that if the distance was far enough there would be an effect great enough to warrent concern, but probably would not be anywhere near us especially if you take geometry into account in which the spherical nature of the earth would be taken into account.  Relying on a straight line to be sustained in order to maintain a constant rate of progression, you would surely bypass earth and continue on.  Then there is atmosphere, or lack there of to take into consideration.  That would probably hinder it greatly if not stop it for sure.

What I'm getting at is that it is pointless to think about such complex thoughts as there are a seemingly infinate number of variables to consider, and you really can't so why bother?   :whistling:  The fact is, no one knows for sure if it will have any sort of affect.  Why trouble yourself about it.  Trust me, I think and circles and it isn't fun. :P

Yeah, so there.  I hope you all enjoyed my silly ramblings on the validity of that theory. (With mispellings and all  :P)

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ThomPhoenix

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Re: The Butterfly Effect
« Reply #101 on: October 03, 2006, 06:05:06 pm »
Quote
and it where humans who discovered that it isnt. by watching, not by math.
Actually it was Aristotle who used shadows to calculate that the earth had to be a sphere, ages before Columbus used his theory to go to "India".
Quote
infact i believe it was mathematically expressed that earth has to be in the center of the universe.
Copernicus presented his theory of Heliocentrism 500 years ago, though the church later forced him to renounce his theory.

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zanzibar

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Re: The Butterfly Effect
« Reply #102 on: October 03, 2006, 06:13:26 pm »
Here's an example of what I mean by the human experience being subjective.  This is one interactionist theory, "symbolic interactionism".  It's one interactionist theory among many.


http://people.uvawise.edu/pww8y/Reviews/IS/ISRev/RevIS03Perspect.html#Outline%20on%20the%20Principles%20of%20Symbolic-Interactionism
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Mindari

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Re: The Butterfly Effect
« Reply #103 on: October 07, 2006, 10:00:27 am »
wow... thats a huge amount of writing to simply say "people effect people" :-X

Radiant Memphis

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Re: The Butterfly Effect
« Reply #104 on: October 07, 2006, 10:35:48 am »
"That's the great thing about argument, if done properly your never wrong. It's not in proving that my view is right but that yours is wrong"-Simi-quote from Thank you for smoking. Kinda feel it sums up most of this thread pretty well.
::Edit::  Although, I am sure some one will argue that I am wrong hee hee.
 :lol:
« Last Edit: October 07, 2006, 10:38:09 am by Radiant Memphis »