is this the game ive dreamed of?

[madrebel]

that sounds really cool veng.

[Grey]

hrm.  There is a way to make stealing a bit risky...  let anyone in the area of the robbery be able to beat this piss out of the thief.  He automatically becomes a hunted man.  Perhaps this could be implemented with a command you can only use after you have been stolen from that makes the whole populace of zone PCs have open pvp where the thief could still fight back, and also have NPCs that aren\'t on the thief\'s side attack on sight as well.  Even if the thief escapes to another zone, the person stolen from would still have him on his pvp list, and likewise with the thief.  If the thief is killed, the person that was stolen from can retrieve the item, and the person that killed/imprisoned etc. the thief has his choice of one other item in the thief\'s possession.  This could be used in a guild sense as a band of robbers steal from someone, and then threaten him that if he hits the panic alarm that they will kill him.  The biggest problem with this is that if the robbed man\'s computer crashes, he will lose the item and not be able to pursue the thief.  If a \'low level\' character is stolen from and can\'t fight back, too bad.  If your really low level, you shouldn\'t have anything that the thief would risk his life to steal anyway.  And of course, if the thief is caught trying to steal, the same thing could happen and the thief could still lose an item.  The great thing about this game is that a thief can\'t immediately tell how powerful a character will be, and he won\'t know if he has thief skills or not.  I can see in my head a band of pretty \'low level\' thieves trying to mug a master sorceror or swordsman and all of them getting blasted to ashes or chopped to bits.

[Crimson]

I think Greys idea of having ne thiefs who have stolen recently pkable is a good idea and even better is the pvp list so that the one who has been stolen from can get the thief even if they get away the first time. But like most suggestions it has a few problems:

1. If the thief got away from the onslaught of players at first he could go and just sell the item he has stolen off to a store for money, this means that if the person who has been stolen from does find him and kill him after they wont get their item back.

2. If someone developed into a super thief/fighter they could steal without any trouble because nobody could match them. Strong fighters could also just get their thivery skill to say lvl 2 and steal off neone they wanted a fight from. They could use the pk stealing system to their pking needs.

Crimson

[Grey]

...  A real life action is a way to solve the first problem.  Fencing goods.  No respectable merchant is going to buy hot goods, and in areas with merchants there are often guards who would be activated by the system.  The thief would have to take a while to sell it even to a PC.  He could also go to a thieves guild (still after a little time) and fence it to the master thief.  

Another addition to the rule.  If the thief \'zones\' and is taken off the list of the NPCs and the other PCs in the zone.  The PC who was stolen from can give permission to \'assassinate\' the thief to retrieve his item.  Oh and as a general rule that makes sense, You cannot steal something that someone is wearing.  It must be in a pouch.  And I\'ve never heard of someone stealing something as large as a sword or a piece of armor from someone, its just too big.  

As to the second problem.  You don\'t need to fight the person.  If some brutish guy accosted me and I didn\'t know how strong and skilled he was, and attempted to steal but couldn\'t, I would run.  not take my chances to a brawl.

[Crimson]

Originally posted by Grey
You cannot steal something that someone is wearing. It must be in a pouch. And I\'ve never heard of someone stealing something as large as a sword or a piece of armor from someone, its just too big.

What do you think that the thieves are gonna steal then? Food Maybe a magic potion or 2? Do you really think those items are worth getting your stealing levels to a ridiculously high lvl? Most of what a person carries is what he is wearing or even if he is not wearing it is still armour. Say a really high lvl black smith just finished making some amazing armour, hows a thief going to feel when they steal from them and all they get is a cheap hammer to bash the metal with?

The best thing a thief could get would be a sum of cash but most people keep their money in the bank for safekeeping against such things happening, I don\'t know about you but I wouldn\'t want to risk my chars life on the slim chance of getting some money or at the best a magic potion.

I know this game is meant to be realistic but if they did include player stealing you would have to be aloud to steal some larger items or thieves just wouldnt be able to make a living.

Crimson

[Pegasus]

I agree with grey that you cant steal big things from another player as it would be easy to notice when someone runs off with a sword that weights 40-50 pounds - not to say that you can catch him quite easily.

But how about thieves could break into places (like houses, castles, shop)  where no people are present - or are guarded by some guards standing outside of it. You could use your climbing skill to get onto the roof, then maybe get in through a window - finally use your lock picking skill on a door or a safe to get the items stored in there.

Ow and madrebel: the neocron pk system isnt that good - either you take your LE chip out and take the risk of being killed when you try to level your character or you keep it in your head and suffer the 1/3 penalty on experience and money. And the soullight thing isnt a big issue either as only the Copbots and Stormbots in the inner city will kill you when they see you (still there is enough place in the wastelands to live and have fun )

[Grey]

Um... most items can be stolen.  And by pouch I don\'t mean a Crown Royal pouch.  I mean it cannot be directly on your person.  It could be in a backpack or a sash, or in a mule pouch on the animal that you are riding.  And I stand by the principal that you cannot take large items like swords and breastplates.  The thief would be taking jewelry, daggers, whatever.  Maybe with a higher level, you can take larger and larger items, but I cannot see anyone but a master thief take a 7 pound longsword from someone\'s backpack, or worse, from its scabbard, without instantly being given the smackdown.

Ow.  and madrebel... I\'d love to see someone carry a sword that weighs 50 pounds.
-                                            _________
-                                            l I cut you!l
-                                            l________ l
-                                        
-                                       @....,____
-                                         l_-l--l____\\
-                                         l_
-                                         l  l
-                                         \\  \\

Man, ASCII is tough to do on this forum.

[Link]

Originally posted by madrebel
Thanks for the troll warning but im a member at some of the more ruthless gaming forums on the web. nothing he could do or say would be new .

HAHA I told all you crazy baboons that on real forums they don\'t go lightly on people who type like crap. Typing like crap = makes you look like an idiot. So be sure and proof read you apes!

[madrebel]

Originally posted by Link

Originally posted by madrebel
Thanks for the troll warning but im a member at some of the more ruthless gaming forums on the web. nothing he could do or say would be new .

HAHA I told all you crazy baboons that on real forums they don\'t go lightly on people who type like crap. Typing like crap = makes you look like an idiot. So be sure and proof read you apes!

hola troll. you are correct to a point. this isnt friggin english class. i can tolerate some mispellings somewhat bad grammar etc.. the only time i really gramar whore is in the following exaplmes

if someone were to say something like

\"omg dude your so stupid\".

clearly he should have said you\'re not your. if you\'re going to attack someone\'s intelligence, you better spell everything correctly. otherwise who\'s the idjit?

also....i didnt say anything about 40 pound swords . i do agree though, you just cant jack a suit of armor that is being worn. thieves should only be able to jack small items out of inventory (backpacks etc..).  The only time a thief should be allowed to steal the larger items is out of a guild\'s \'lock box\' or a castle treasury etc... They should also be able to steal from both NPC merchants and PC merchants.

[Pegasus]

With that 7 pound long sword you are refering to those swords you can buy now that have \'medival\' written on the blade - the actual swords were much heavier as they needed to penetrate heavy armor - beside that swords werent only there to cut people into pieces but also to throw them to the ground (with a medival armor of a knight you wouldnt be able to stand up without any help - which means the battle is over for you). I know that 50 pounds is the extreme amoung swords as only few could carry those and actually use them

[Grey]

Sorry madrebel, I thought of the wrong person and didn\'t check it.  As for you Pegasus... NO!  No one alive or dead could ever carry a 50 pound sword.  Have you ever fenced with a 7 pound sword?  The sword I am holding in my hand now is 5 pounds, and it is a full sized and weighted long sword.  Of course, if you hold it out, the gravitational weight (or whatever force) feels like it is 20 pounds, but what you feel can be misleading.

[madrebel]

well, im not very versed in medival swords (mostly asian types). Its my understanding though that a long sword really wasnt that heavy. It wasnt until you got into the massive 2 handed claymores that the swords really started to get heavy.

Also, armor got progressively heavier over time. When suits of armor first arrived on the battle scene they werent that heavy in comparision to the last suits of armor which were designed to stop early round rifle shot.

Weaponry also evolved. Arrows got piercing tips. Swords changed from being long thick blades where the deadly part of the sword was the blade itself. To the long thing rapier style swords where the tip was the killer as it would more easily penetrate armor. Overtime swords stopped being massive in favor of light \"deadly fast\" blades.

http://www.castles.org/armor_and_weapons/history.htm  <---most excellent info

http://www.swordhistory.com/home.html  
http://www.aiusa.com/medsword/
http://www.thehaca.com/default.htm

http://www.shadowofleaves.com/sword_history.htm <--japanese sword history

[Grey]

There\'s an equation for the weight of a sword on your wrist.  I can\'t quite remember it, but I\'d guess that picking up a sword that was 7 feet long and weighed 50 pounds would require you to be able to lift over 400 pounds with your wrists and Lats.  That\'s my low end estimate.  And seeing as you already have steel or (gasp!) iron armour on, it would be a bit heavy.  I think the scottish flamberge (a set weapon, to impale charging infantry), one of the largest swords of all time (and it wasn\'t even swung) had a blade that weighed less than 20 pounds.  I know that I have little proof for these estimates, but I put them definitely on the low and high sides, respectably.  I\'ve carried a pretty light bastard sword (maybe 8 pounds) and felt the weight of that, and I am by no means a weak man.  I have also seen advertisements for an exact replica flamberge on the order of 8 kilos.

[LirainIzar]

This is kind of interesting - the only sword I\'ve used for martial arts weighs about three pounds and even granting that I\'m not really strong in the arms, practicing forms with it is really tiring after a while.  I can\'t imagine anything over seven pounds being used by characters who aren\'t massively muscled.  And yes, how do you miss someone stealing this from you?  Just my two cents on that one...

About being a thief, there are a couple points that we aren\'t looking at.  There is a difference between being able to pickpocket small things on the street and being able to break into places and take bigger stuff.  I mean if I saw someone stealing from someone else on the street and it was really obvious, (being a do-gooder) I\'d be likely to find out who the thief was and publicize it at least.  Perhaps these would work best as different thief skills, one for sleight of hand type pickpocketing and another for the lock picking and not being discovered type of theft.  I really like the idea of not being able to sell hot merchandise to just any merchant because it provides characters some time to track down their stuff and get it back from whoever stole it, and considering the number of thieves out there it could make anyone who is a fence really rich.

This raises another question - in the towns will there be some form of police to keep order and catch/punish criminals?  If so, are these npc or are they open to any of us?  Hmmm... this could get way too complex....

[Kiern]

Originally posted by LirainIzar
This raises another question - in the towns will there be some form of police to keep order and catch/punish criminals?  If so, are these npc or are they open to any of us?  Hmmm... this could get way too complex....

I think it should change depending on the city you are in...for example, huge cities where there is a lot of people it can be a mix of both NPC and human guards (npc\'s doing the more mundane tasks) and smaller cities that there are a lot of people in it could be all human, and last small towns with few people should be all NPC

And police should be voted in, be given to by mods, or some other higher-up person

Thats my view anyways