Old Player, New Character

[zanzibar]

Zanzibar, I am going to make an exception from ignoring you for this single post of yours.

That's nice, since I don't even remember who you are.

I read through your post.  I found it to be small minded and petty.  Yes, petty.  And yes, I'm accusing you of trolling.  Suno and Karyuu both made some very good, from the heart points, and your reaction was to flame them with a very aggressive tone.  There was no need for that.

I hope that one day you grow out of this bitterness you seem to keep with you.  When I judge others, I try to remind myself that I make mistakes, and that others can change.  It's too bad that you do not see things the same way.

[Phinehas]

Zanzibar, that fatherly tone is spreading it a bit too thick.

[Karyuu]

Since the subject of this thread has already shifted a bit, I hope it's okay if I continue on the current tangent:

Often the use of alts in a large RP plot becomes necessary - and I feel that a story would lose some of its immersion and magic if I knew that [Big Ugly Man] was also played by [Noble Paladin]. Is it not much more fun to wonder Who is this sudden new terror, where did he come from? instead of going How neat, another character of [playername] ?

[Phinehas]

Ah, but that is merely for you. For instance, I know that Under creates many alts for the running of various roleplays. This doesn't keep me from interacting with them each separately. Also, and I know this is heading into the "personal preference" territory, but I don't like the concept of long-term alts. Short-term ones that are meant to last as long as the storyline of a certain RP, fine. Even long-term ones that you just go on to enjoy the game from a different perspective for a couple hours every month are fine, but ones where you purposefully come and RP with the same people that you RP with your other characters just seems selfish somehow. I think that if everyone put as much effort into a single character as I do into Phinehas, then the RP would be a lot richer due to more developed characters. As it is, everyone just wants to be everything, which seems somewhat immature to me. I'm not saying we shouldn't have fun, I'm saying that if people work together to make the RP a higher quality, it WILL be more fun.

Yes, that was a rant.

[bilbous]

Certainly there is no problem with thread morphing in interesting directions. I have to say though that there is a vast difference between ephemeral characters such as Big Ugly Man and Noble Paladin and alternate characters that are going to be used outside of set pieces. It is possible that I for example could be called to play Big Ugly Man and do such a good job that the character becomes a staple of future events. If the character is used in this manner and played true to its purpose, it doesn't really matter who is controlling it. Such a role is unlikely to be given to an untrusted player so the problem will not likely come up.

[zanzibar]

Zanzibar, that fatherly tone is spreading it a bit too thick.

It's sincere though.

Also:  In D&D, you wouldn't play with people you don't like, but this isn't D&D.  It's Planeshift.  The difference in medium makes a big difference to the way the game operates.  I think that if you're worried about someone taking advantage of you based on an OOC grudge, then that's cause for concern, but I'm not quite sure how they would go about actually acting on it.  Since there's no way for them to really hurt you, I don't really see what Seytra's concerns stem from.  It seems to me like he's just being petty and vindictive.


@Bilbous:  I agee entirely.  Using alts to grief others is out of line.  But griefing others in general is out of line, so I'm still not sure what we hope to achieve with this thread.

[Phinehas]

And yet Zanzi, I still think that trying to right wrongs and apologizing when necessary is better than hoping to trick the people into thinking you're not you. You'll be hard pressed to deny that.

If I ever let all the people who dislike me finally get the best of me, I'm not simply going to create another character and wander around as him. I'm going to talk to the people who disliked me, apologize if necessary, do my best to make amends. Then I may or may not retire Phinehas and create another character, however, I would let people know here in the forums and OOC in-game that I am Phinehas.

[zanzibar]

And yet Zanzi, I still think that trying to right wrongs and apologizing when necessary is better than hoping to trick the people into thinking you're not you. You'll be hard pressed to deny that.

Actually, I'll deny it somewhat readily.  Some people are hard to make peace with, myself one of them.  It isn't always worth the trouble.  Also, OOC reputations tend to take on a life of their own, and there's always the potential for someone out there to mess with your character or spy on it for OOC reasons.

Plus, as others like Zorbels and Karyuu have said, even when you're on good terms with the player, you'll tend to treat their new characters differently just because of who the player behind the character is.  The easiest way to avoid this is simply to keep the identity of the player a secret.  It's OOC information anyway.

[Phinehas]

I think the basic disagreement here is that some people believe that RP is something you do with friends, and is more enjoyable as such than RPing with strangers. Others believe that who you're RPing with doesn't matter, as long as they're good at it.

[neko kyouran]

Plus, as others like Zorbels and Karyuu have said, even when you're on good terms with the player, you'll tend to treat their new characters differently just because of who the player behind the character is.  The easiest way to avoid this is simply to keep the identity of the player a secret.  It's OOC information anyway.

Small side note since I likes to keep the facts straight.... Lady Z hasn't posted here yet, but I did refer to her as an exmple in my post.
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For me, I have the main character, but, I'm sorry to say, I get bored with playing 1 character.  Be it vastly unfinshed game mechanics or not, months and months, and countless hours, even if its just a few here and there at a time, after awhile, things do start to get a bit stale. Rather than letting the RP atmosphere suffer, I then decide it's time to put this character down and try something else.

This game is supposed to be fun, not a second life.  So after 3-4 months, as that's how long it normally takes for me to start to get bored and the value of my RP starts to degrade, I send my main off an exploration adventure.  Then I crate a fresh character and start a different role.  To keep it fresh, to have fun.  I have tried both ways stated here.  The first being telling people I play with, that this is just an alt of my main, and I'm just taking a break from my main, to play this character, and the other method.  That being, keeping all ooc stuff out of it and just playing the role with out telling people this char is really just an alt of so and so.

From my personal experience, I like doing the latter of the two.  Simply becuase, for the most generalist of players, they handle a new fresh character better in an IC way when they don't know that the player behind the character is really so and so.  So I don't tell them.  And to me, it seems to makes things more fun for me, and for the others interacting with my characters.  Which is the point afterall, to have fun.

hope that makes sense, had to write a tad quickly.  (I'm at work.)

[zhai]

The way it's happened for me is like this: I created a char, developed their personality and skills and had a bunch of buddies I would RP with. Then I thought of a different concept for a new character. Since the new personality was so different from the first character's, I had the chance to meet and RP with different players/characters and explore the game from a different perspective. And it also happened with my next character, and the next... Of course, the players I consider friends OOC know of most of my alts, but I don't feel the obligation of telling every new person I know who else I play as, same as any other OOC info. Do I care if everyone knows who I play as? Not at all.

Now as Zanzibar said: any kind of OOC deceit should be avoided. I'm gonna quote that episode during the Dwarven Wars yet again(I keen pointing at that particular case from time to time) where a player joined Dwarvesbane only to steal other members' weapons. Despite the complains, it was declared an IC trick. I tend to disagree since OOC channels were used to deceive other players and the thief just deleted the character after looting his guildmate. However, the problem was not that he had an alt and didn't say who his other character was. The problem was that he took advantage of the other players. Heck, I would have no problem being in a guild where one of the characters is my character's nemesis' alt, and not knowing, as long as they keep IC knowledge free from OOC info and ill purposes and RPed accordingly. You can lie to the characters, but you shouldn't lie to the players.

And I also agree with Phinehas and Setira that you should have the right to avoid the players you hate. However, I've never been in such a place and one of the good things about RP, in my opinion, is that by playing a character you can expand your own points of view and be more flexible and open, so why not give it a try? I believe that in the end RP will define who you really click with and will add to your buddy list for good. If the player behind the new char is no different from the one you knew in the first place, you'll see through them because of their actions will probably be loud and clear if that's the case.

[bilbous]

so I'm still not sure what we hope to achieve with this thread.

I don't know about you but for me, it is to pass the time and provoke lively discussion. I think it has been fairly successful in that regards. Is there a problem with a thread having no other purpose than to be thought provoking? Perhaps a few more people will share their feelingsabout the topic, perhaps it will peter out. I have (mostly) enjoyed it. If you feel the need to achieve great purposes maybe you should join the geek corps (joking, although it is, I think a noble purpose).

[Kiraki]

This is indeed a very interesting topic.  Even though there is such a great diversity in opinions I can’t help but feel that they are all, for the most part, correct.  This is because they are simply that, opinions.  These change with each person’s personal experience and is thus completely valid from their point of view.

Alts can easily be abused and they should really be used with a lot of thought and consideration.  My character makes mistake, but I carry on, sometimes I am able to fix things sometimes not.  I do not think alts should be used in any relation to your main character.  This includes spying or trying to make amends/form friendships with people who your main character does not get along with and other similar actions.
The problem with telling people about your alt is that there are a lot of people who can not properly RP not knowing this OOC information.   As Neko has said, they associate your new character with your old one and often mix them up and refer to things that had happened which your character knows nothing about. 

Playing with Kiraki usually means conversing with a lot of different people often leading to very long and in-dept conversations.   I, on the other hand, am not always as talkative as my character and not always in the mood for pretending to be, as I am not in the right mind set to keep the right attitude IC.  So instead of going OOC I created a new character with a less gregarious personality specifically with this in mind (This was quite a long while ago already).  It was not to try and befriend people Kira did not get along with or try to spy or trick people or anything of the sort, it was simply meant to better encompass my highly and constantly fluxing moods.  I am not my character nor am I like her.  I feel that revealing to someone who I am on an alt is not so much revealing myself but revealing my character, which does not make sense for the two have no relation with each other.  Yet I did so as to let people know OOC that it is the same person behind the two characters - even though most of them associate with my main character and do not really know the person behind.  I still find this a strange concept.

I found however that telling people who you are causes a lot of problems, mostly related to the reason stated above.  A lot of people either assume the two are alike or that they know each other for some reason.  Some even came up to me and started talking as if we where old friends, although my character had never met them, others kept trying to somehow meet or become involved with my character. I found it frustrating to play this new character because peoples reactions where often very unnatural as they kept yielding to the OOC aspect of things. At some point someone who had a problem with Kira came along and killed my little alt.  I left her dead…  Even though the problem turned out be a misunderstanding I have not resurrected her and have avoided using alts since then.

Even when using an alt the game is still meant to be enjoyable.  For me this was not possible with people knowing the person behind the alt as it was disruptive to my RP and generally just irritating.  If I do create another alt I will most likely try a different approach, i.e. keeping it secret (*Gasp*  Am I bad person now?).  Some might feel this is sneaky or low but to me it would not be to try and trick people into thinking I am someone else OOC or any other dishonorable reasons or intentions, but simply for the sake of simplicity and to avoid confusion.  I would only tell those few who I am fully certain would be able to still keep IC while knowing such OOC information.

[bilbous]

Thank you for your contribution Kiraki. I agree that is a very valid reason to create an alternate character. One reason I have for creating other characters is similar. As bilbous gets more experienced the range of options for him to actually do as opposed to pretend to do has become more limited. Starting a new character opens up all the early experience parts of the game again. I am not trying to belittle Role Play when i referred to it as "pretending to do" I was merely trying to distinguish it from those aspects of the game that can be enjoyed even if you were alone in the world. For some people "alone in a crowd" is a reality that can be hard to shake so having levelling as an adjunct to pure RP is inclusive. You are more likely to get to know that person that on the next exercise bicycle fairly frequently than you are the person always standing on the same street corner when you go by unless perhaps you are buying whatever they are selling. If people were not meant to have alternate characters then accounts would only allow for one.

[Monketh]

I'm afraid that although I can acknowledge the concerns of those opposing anonymous alternates, I can't agree with them.  The beauty of the internet is the ability to forget who you are.

There are some valid reasons.
1.) As previously mentioned, people treat certain players differently, and extend this effect to their characters.  I myself have difficulty dissociating players from their characters.  Therefore, I entirely understand this motive, as I am guilty of causing people to do this.  (The effects of Draklar creating a dark character in the earlier years are a good case study of this.)
2.) Human nature is not by default forgiving, we can't all be the nice people we want to be or see in the world.  Some of us choose not to and that is unfortunate; but this is a game, something we do to escape the cares of reality.  Likewise it would be silly of us to drag the baser elements of human nature in with us.  (We should apologize for our actions, but if we are legitimately changed we should be forgiven.  Because some people believe we cannot change, or are really freaking stubborn in holding grudges, and because gossip echoes, opposing freeing oneself of a past identity in a virtual game environment is unreasonable.)
3.) Those who abuse the priviledge will abuse it regardless of what we say here.  There is no way their ISP's are going to just hand over their IPs as they change just so a free open-source MMORPG can ban them for a reason like this.  As much as you may dislike it, the negative effects of any methods to restrain it would outweigh any benefit.