In game languages

[Eagel]

Soooo...
Just we need Darkmoon's blessing... 
I see many people interested in this project 

And as Seytra says, I don't think a newcomer player must to learn an enki language to play the game. I believe that an Enkidukai language is a powerfull tool to improve ourself roleplaying. Besides, as a new player, I have to talk english which is not my country language and I do it because I like the game very much. I think it will be the same situation when a player see that he could talk 'enki' if he wants to learn...it's not an obligation.

Is there a language for a determined race?... good!
Do you want to learn?... naahh...
Ok, then your character simply could have many background histories (like don't respect tradition, or forget ancient language...)
I think an in-game language is an option to roleplay.

It's true that there will be separation (if we aren't careful)... Different thoughts and opinions...

I propose this:
* ask him and wait for Darkmoon's bless (as said by Shooree) ----[I already asked him  ]
* ask him for two people who will lead the project and work on language basis (as sayd by Arka)
* test the language in the group (as sayd by Arka)
* give all material to Darkmoon's to his approval (as said by Shoree)
* maybe, when its done, publish language rules into the forum to give access to all player for this language
I repeat... enki language it is not an in-game obligation, it is an option. Also it's true that could be many variants of an enki language (like RL with english or spanish i.e.) but if we could give a basis, a big range of original language will be the same for all.
Actually, as said by Nurakh and Karyuu, everybody can made an in-game language and use it... actually english has variants in-game... there're not equals british, american or australian english but they have the same basis.

to close my point of view:
An enki language will be a huge boost to RP.
It's true that we must to respect Darkmoon's work and see him like a leader and being under his supervision.
We should try the language in a small group to test it.
I we are succeded, post a thread with the research for the community.

 :surrender:Oh... Oh... It just came to my mind... It's true that if we use enki language in-game, the most 'public' words will be for salutation and a handful of simple phrases... because will be easier to express an idea in english than enki... so I don't think that will be separation...

[Kerol]

Hi all. Decided tonight in the settings team that we move this language project onto the ps wiki.

Linky: http://pswiki.xordan.com/index.php/Main_Page#Language_Project

It would be a good start to copy&paste all the existing pieces of the languages there and discuss the details on the discussion page (dont forget to sign your comment on the discussion page with --~~~~).
We, the settings team will review the work there and are looking forward to work with you guys. 

[Arka]

Thanks Kerol

Noted - I have started the process of transferring the materials over to the wiki - it will take a little time, as I've accumulated a lot of language in 11 months!

Note to Stonebreaker Students - please take a look at what I am doing and ask questions in the discussion pages or edit stuff that's obviously wrong (yes I make mistakes too!)

For the moment, let's just map out what already exists - no new stuff until we are all clear about the starting point.

Thanks to the Settings team for this opportunity


Arka

[DAudioLink]

  What about the Diaboli? They surely have their own language, right? Alcarin grew up in a village full of them, yet I've not been able to use one lick of Diaboli IG IC. Then there are my Diaboli characters... I have a question about Elven too, can we use what's already out there, at least for now, or should we wait until the PS Elven has been created?

[Kerol]

You can make a new page/section for diaboli language and others on the wiki similar to the languages already there.
I don't see any reason to restrict the offer from the dev team to work with you guys on languages should be restricted on only one or two languages. We will see how things work out and eventually put them ingame.

[Seytra]

I have a question about Elven too, can we use what's already out there, at least for now, or should we wait until the PS Elven has been created?

I think it would be preferrable to wait, or start on a PS elvish. On the net, there is more or less one major elvish language, Sindarin, and very few minor, yet somewhat known ones. If you would "semi-officially" start using any of those in PS, it might find too many users too fast in order to be replaced by the PS elvish once it is done. Unless PS plans to use for example Sindarin for it's elves, of course, though I'd be surprised by that.

[Parallo]

Yes there are already many people useing Peacer's elvish whatever that may be.

[Darkmoon]

The whole reason behind these languages is that they are developed from our races in our game world.  Sindarin was built from Tolkien's world and is part of its history and is integrated with its cultures.  We might be able to borrow some concepts for the language base, but any languages in PS should be our own.  With that, I can probably plan on (sometime in the future) developing some basic stuff for the various racial languages.  Not all races will have their own languages outside the common tongue.  This is also something that's not top priority, so it will likely be a while before anything is done or released.  I do, however, appreciate the interest this has generated. 

[Under the moon]

Ok, someone poked me about the Boli tongue, and what I would know about it. Well, as of now, nothing. But, we can let logic and the Settings dictate the path it might take.

The Boli came from a land of smoke, flame, and danger. This would lend to a certian type of speach. Due to the smoke and heat, the words would be kept as short as possible to conserve breath. Also, for this reason added to the danger factor of prowling beasts, most harsh sounds would be eliminated so as not to carry on the winds. Add into this the fact that the Boli are considered a charasmatic and aluring race. This lends to thinking that their language would be smooth and pleasant to the ears. Klingon is simply not aluring.

What that adds up to is a semi-whispered and flowing tongue using many soft 'c's (like in a whispered coo), few 's's, some light 'v's and a lot of 'l's.

However, the shouted words of the Boli would be much different. Harsh and brutal, and sounded to carry for long distances.

The Diaboli are survivors and nomads of a dark land, and their lauguage should reflect that.

[Arka]

The whole reason behind these languages is that they are developed from our races in our game world.  Sindarin was built from Tolkien's world and is part of its history and is integrated with its cultures.  We might be able to borrow some concepts for the language base, but any languages in PS should be our own.  With that, I can probably plan on (sometime in the future) developing some basic stuff for the various racial languages.  Not all races will have their own languages outside the common tongue.  This is also something that's not top priority, so it will likely be a while before anything is done or released.  I do, however, appreciate the interest this has generated. 

Excellent point Darkmoon. In developing Stonebreaker I have always made it clear that this is not a dialect of Dwarfish, but a wholly new language, devised many generations ago to enable the Stonebreakers to trade with other races without disclosing the Dwarfish language (which is secret anyway).

As for the elves, I would imagine that many would have knowledge of Sindarin as the laguage tihe High-Elves - but of course there were many races of Elf, as there were of Dwarfs (and I have a theory that Stonebreakers were split from the Petty-Dwarfs, but that is a different story) So a derivative language for the Dermorians would be completely believable. And, just as Stonebreaker reflects the environment for these Dawrfs - the sound of steel on rock, the deep rumbles and echoes of the world below ground, and Enki reflects the sounds of the open plains, the rustle of the wind in the grass, I would imagine, Dermorian would reflect the sounds of the forest; birdsong, the rustle of the leaves and the sighing of the wind in the boughs. But it would also lean towards Sindarin, as Stonebreaker leans towards Old Norse.

Just my 2trias worth....


Arka

[zhai]

In order for any language to grow, "speakers" should be competent in creating new constructions. Therefore, a certain language logic is required. Creating an extensive glossary is important but setting language rules is even more important. Those behind in-game languages like Arka and Darkmoon may already have all this in mind, I really know little of how advanced these projects are beyond what's been stated in this thread, but just in case, you may find these questions useful:

How does the language specifies inflections of gender and number?
In English, for example, the particles "-s", "-es" and "-ies" are used on nouns for the regular plural form, and the suffixes like "-ess" to specify gender. Adjectives and verbs do not suffer any change in either case. In Spanish, every word suffers some sort of change regarding gender and number: verbs, nouns, adjectives, and so on. So, how does this work with the Stonebreaker and Enkidukai tongues? I can use the word "tabei" for 1 friend. Is it "tabeis" for 2 or more? Same with the adjective "kera" (dear) in Stonebreaker. I can say "Kera Indygo", can I say "Kera Indygo and Einnol" or "Kera Zorbels" (with no distinction of number and gender)? The word "urpnam" means warrior in Stonebreaker. What's the plural form? "Urpnams"? Stating these rules of inflection will allow players to use the language in a more flexible way.

How does the language conjugate verbs?
Maybe we don't need to specify all grammar tenses. That would be a LOT of work. However, how verbs work for the imperative form (used to give commands such as "(you)Shut up" or "Let's go") may come in handy. This could be very simple if we already have a list of verbs.

How do syntax and word formation work?
English is a language of word order. In plain, that means that the word that preceeds another modifies it. So, if we want to refer to a sword that is heavy we say "heavy sword". It's a very simple way to interconnect words and meanings. This can be used to combine particles of the language. For instance:

bonnhetolo - good for you
phonweh - place
bonnphonweh - good place?

The same can be applied for word formation. For example, using the word "urpnam" again and the particles (which I just made up for this particular example) "hrjun" for "group" and "Virr" for "leader":

urpnam - warrior
hrjunurpnam - army?
urpnamvirr - war lord?

Again, these are just some suggestions. If we know how the languages work, a glossary will allow new combinations and player can use their own competence to use them and understand them.

[Eagel]

Thank you Zhai for your comments, enkien has now a little introduction (alphabet, numbers) and it's open to discussion.
Want to colaborate?  visit PS Wiki page and make your adds.

I'm working right now in verb tenses... just past, present and future for now... and again, it's open to discussions   

*EDIT*
I saw Laris work... and it's really really good... His works have sense...
I apologize here (I do it by PM also) because I never saw his work... I never ever want to destroy any's work.
Please, feel free to modify all wrong material in the wiki 
 *EDIT*

[Shooree]

Yes, indeed, Zhai. That is exactly what I was reffering to when I said that Darkmoon should lead this effort in every sense. I, of course, hoped that he will be able to answer all those crucial grammatical questions, because the issue of vocalbulary developement is comparatively easy and I find it more plausible that that part can be done as a communal effort. The rules that should guide the language, though, are best left to the creator himself though, I believe. This is not to say that any interested parties should refrain from contributing in that sense as well. It's just that I really would like to see, as well as hear, consistency. I hope you all catch my drift. With that being said, I'm off to examine the few Slavic languages I speak and their grammar... there's a few niceties there, that might just fit in. Cheers and good luck to all involved!

*EDIT* http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=26335.0  <---- the guy kickstarted the thing, but in a different subforum. If Darkmoon doesn't mind, wemight start from there? *EDIT*

[Einnol]

@Zhai:  Very good points that you have brought up.  In the case of Pel Perrakithor (Stonebreaker), I believe the answers to all of your questions already have answers.  Most of those answers can already be found here.  I'll let Arka handle any more detailed answers.   

[Arka]

Thanks Zhai

Well observed; here are some answers for you:

In order for any language to grow, "speakers" should be competent in creating new constructions. Therefore, a certain language logic is required. Creating an extensive glossary is important but setting language rules is even more important. Those behind in-game languages like Arka and Darkmoon may already have all this in mind, I really know little of how advanced these projects are beyond what's been stated in this thread, but just in case, you may find these questions useful:

I agree. Stonebreaker is very extensible - there is a clear structure that links nouns and verbs and makes it very easy for anyone to add words or develop new words by combining existing ones. I built this in from the beginning, knowing that others might want to contribute (and Einnol already has)

How does the language specifies inflections of gender and number?
In English, for example, the particles "-s", "-es" and "-ies" are used on nouns for the regular plural form, and the suffixes like "-ess" to specify gender. Adjectives and verbs do not suffer any change in either case. In Spanish, every word suffers some sort of change regarding gender and number: verbs, nouns, adjectives, and so on. So, how does this work with the Stonebreaker and Enkidukai tongues? I can use the word "tabei" for 1 friend. Is it "tabeis" for 2 or more? Same with the adjective "kera" (dear) in Stonebreaker. I can say "Kera Indygo", can I say "Kera Indygo and Einnol" or "Kera Zorbels" (with no distinction of number and gender)? The word "urpnam" means warrior in Stonebreaker. What's the plural form? "Urpnams"? Stating these rules of inflection will allow players to use the language in a more flexible way.

Plurals in Stonebreaker are usually formed by adding 'th' or '-eth' as a word ending, depending on the existing word ending. 'Urpnam' is derived from the verb 'urpna' (to fight) which, in turn is based on 'Urpem' (warfare). The plural of urpnam is 'urpnameth' as the -am eding takes -eth in the plural ('urpnamth' is too clumsy to pronounce).

Gender is hardly expressed in Stonebreaker. It is rumoured that dwarfs are a little 'hazy' about gender (at least if you believe Trerry Pratchett). It has been said that the main difference is that the females occasionally shave, while the males do not! So no gender types except for a few words: Pekart (boy) and Pekarta (girl); Arka (beautiful) and Arkumin (handsome). Other adjectives do not need to agree in either gender nor number. They are paired with the following noun (and are often joined to the noun they qualify)

How does the language conjugate verbs?
Maybe we don't need to specify all grammar tenses. That would be a LOT of work. However, how verbs work for the imperative form (used to give commands such as "(you)Shut up" or "Let's go") may come in handy. This could be very simple if we already have a list of verbs.

All that has been done in Stonebreaker (and yes, it was a lot of work )

How do syntax and word formation work?
English is a language of word order. In plain, that means that the word that preceeds another modifies it. So, if we want to refer to a sword that is heavy we say "heavy sword". It's a very simple way to interconnect words and meanings. This can be used to combine particles of the language. For instance:

bonnhetolo - good for you
phonweh - place
bonnphonweh - good place?

The same can be applied for word formation. For example, using the word "urpnam" again and the particles (which I just made up for this particular example) "hrjun" for "group" and "Virr" for "leader":

urpnam - warrior
hrjunurpnam - army?
urpnamvirr - war lord?

This is exactly the way I see it working.

Again, these are just some suggestions. If we know how the languages work, a glossary will allow new combinations and player can use their own competence to use them and understand them.

Very insightful, very useful, You will make a good tester for the language.

Arka