In game languages

[themule]

Languages are cool, but they do have big drawbacks.

If many Enkis start using common phrases in their own language, my character will soon learn them, and very likely will start using then when addressing other Enkis.

While it may sound cool and nice in a RP way to have a Kran say 'Pardon me' when some Enki says something he doesn't understand, the other way around is neither cool nor nice, and actually breaks RP.

My char can enter Ojaveda and start calling other people 'Tabei' but what if they don't understand? It makes no sense. This means that in order to play a Enkindukai just decently, you have to learn the language.

Unless you place some (weird) restriction such as 'only Enkindukais may use the Enki language'. It makes really no sense to have a Kran who speaks the Enkis' native language while most of then don't.

I don't see any problem in putting one Enki word here and there when chatting, just like NPCs do

But I've just learned today that 'Tabei' means 'friend'. I thought it meant 'stranger', which is closer to the Enki race psicology (everybody addressed me like that the first time i was in Ojaveda... 'How can I help you, Stranger' sound way more appropriate for Enkis than 'How can I help you, Friend').

Just my two trias.

[Parallo]

Anyone can speak any language in RL. Why not in PS? I'm Irish and I don't know much Irish. My girl friends English and she knows more Irish than me.

[Dilphemor]

I don't see any problem in putting one Enki word here and there when chatting, just like NPCs do

But I've just learned today that 'Tabei' means 'friend'. I thought it meant 'stranger', which is closer to the Enki race psicology (everybody addressed me like that the first time i was in Ojaveda... 'How can I help you, Stranger' sound way more appropriate for Enkis than 'How can I help you, Friend').

Just my two trias.

Actually, you have to remember that is coming from the merchants who want your business.  They have a motive in calling you "Friend" rather than "Stranger".  This is a common practice in many cultures.  I have had it happen to me in shops in Korea and The Philippines.  A merchant who wants to do business with you is going to want you to feel like you are his friend.

Now if I, as a player character, were to call you "Tabei" the first time I've seen you, that would be odd.  Unless I'm just overly friendly.  More than likely, I would use the proper friendly greeting for a stranger, which is "Grrensholo, Taajho".  Just in case you didn't know, Taajho means stranger.

Personally, I like the idea of the languages adding a richness to the RP experience.  I think that players just have to use some sense when interacting with others.  If you use a basic phrase and someone doesn't understand, then stop using the language and revert to the common tongue.  I've found that it actually sparks interest in others who ask if I can teach them some more.

I also like the idea of characters of various races learning some basic phrases.  That also happens when you visit a foreign country.  When I lived in Germany, I learned some basic German.  But I was FAR, FAR, FAR from being fluent.  So my German friends, while appreciating my effort to learn their language, would speak to me primarily in English.

I don't really think it's all that odd that a Kran who is frequently in Ojaveda might encounter an Enki who doesn't speak Enkien.  Think about it, perhaps the Enki you encounter isn't from Ojaveda.  Maybe they live in another land and they're just newly arrived in Ojaveda.  Not everyone of a particular race or nationality speaks the language of that race.  My family is of German descent, yet I knew no German before I lived in Germany and still don't know much of it.

I don't think it really breaks RP that much.  Just RP it as you would act IRL in a similar situation.  Does that make sense?

[Nikodemus]

My char can enter Ojaveda and start calling other people 'Tabei' but what if they don't understand? It makes no sense. This means that in order to play a Enkindukai just decently, you have to learn the language.

But I've just learned today that 'Tabei' means 'friend'. I thought it meant 'stranger', which is closer to the Enki race psicology (everybody addressed me like that the first time i was in Ojaveda... 'How can I help you, Stranger' sound way more appropriate for Enkis than 'How can I help you, Friend').

With different languages, in this case also cultures, simple logical translation word to word isn't going to work.
Nikodemus is enkidukai
Maybe i got completly wrong feeling, but there is noone who is not enkidukai and who would call me Tabei. This make me think that it is not because only enkidukais know that word, but because enkidukais use it only when talking with themselves.
Concluding: maybe i would feel bad about non-enkidukai who call me Tabei. I mean, other enkidukais, even if stragers have the right, others don't.

[Dilphemor]

This make me think that it is not because only enkidukais know that word, but because enkidukais use it only when talking with themselves.
Concluding: maybe i would feel bad about non-enkidukai who call me Tabei. I mean, other enkidukais, even if stragers have the right, others don't.

That's not entirely accurate either.  Jirosh calls everyone "Tabei" does he not?

Someone who's not an Enki, please confirm or correct what I'm saying.  Thanks.

[Arka]

Indeed he does, mo tabei

(or should that be Amart or't?)

Arka

[Shooree]

bleh. I visit this thread alone at least three times a day, because I took serious interest in helping the kind people that have started the language development projects. I hope to see substance and my heart starts racing each time I see a new post. But this has came down to (no offence meant) just random people spilling their raw thoughts on the subject of foreign languages in a game, without anything new being said for the last 4 days or so. Why do you post if all you're going to do is rephrase the first critique? This is a natural thing on a big forum like General Discussion, I guess. To whom it may concern, though, there is a separate thread in the Roleplaying forum, dealing with the actual work on Enkien. Do stop by if you have anything meaningful to add. The PSwiki is the repository of it all, of course, both Enkien and Stonebreaker.

Hm... I don't really know my motive for being so spitefull. I'm usually not like this. I apologise, but I guess this means a lot to me and I'd like more people to actually try and do something instead of saying "IG languages are great, but I think..." and state the same reasons for the 5th time.
Once again sory for the rant. I didn't mean to offend anyone. 

[Kerol]

I think this

when some Enki says something he doesn't understand, the other way around is neither cool nor nice, and actually breaks RP.

actually is a problem.
You can't really RP to know the language unless you actually know the language - well, you can try, but it wont work out without a huge effort to not break realism with too many OOC interruptions.

This brings me to the conclusion that with the introduction of ingame languages the policy should be changed like following:

All chat in public channels should generally either be in English or, if it is in any other language than English (whether real or one of the official artificial languages conceived especially for PlaneShift like Enkien), a direct translation should be provided subsequently.

I think this is a good general solution that also would solve the steady "why the hell cant i talk [put any language here]?!?!" with the answer - You can, but you have to provide a direct translation to english.

[...]without anything new being said for the last 4 days or so.

I suppose this isn't quite the "news" Shooree anticipated, but still

[Shooree]

heh... to be honest, I saw your nick, Kerol, and was somewhat prepared for what follows. On the constructive side (see? I do have a reason for posting, afterall), I guess that the rule you just proposed should be accepted for the time being unconditionally. Once the two languages have evolved a little, further thought might be required, but for this phase, I thinks your solution is in the best interests of all parties.

[themule]

Well I'm not against it, I just pointed out some drawbacks. My char would for sure learn how to greet people in Enkien and use it while in Ojaveda (he spends a lot of time there). Just it should be used with great care... when I'm talking to someone i know, and know he can speak Enken, i can dare to use it more. But when dealing to unknow people (i mostly mean players here) i would reduce it to the bare minimum. The first command a newbie enki would learn if he/she can't understand a word of what's happening around is /quit.
It's hard enough to start knowing nothing, let's keep language barriers to a minimum.

After you set some context (and everyone involved knows it), you may start heavier use of languages.

As for 'Tabei', Enkis are known not to trust strangers much. That would be true for merchants too.

[Shooree]

be honest, now. have you spent more than a minute even -looking- at my, and other people's previous posts, let alone reading them and contemplating? At least the one where I whine about people posting when it's absolutely, painfuly, horrendously, irritatingly obvious that... gah! Why do I bother?!

please... pretty please... post when you have something to say, at least in constructive topics such as this. And by "having something to say", I absolutely DO NOT consider the first thing that associates itself in your mind when you read 4 similar posts. Mainly because that association is more than likely to be less than derivative. Let's keep the ball rolling, eh?

Cheers

[Under the moon]

Hush now.

If it was up to me, which it is not, I would not waste so much time actually learning the languages that will never be useful outside of the game (and not very useful ingame either, to tell you the truth). Instead, I would create a 'feature' of the filter to automatically convert your speech into the tongue you are speaking by use of a command.

Example:

/Diaboli How are you today, my friend?

Someone who knows The Boli tongue will see:

<player> says in Diaboli: How are you today, my friend?

Someone who does not will see:

<player> says in Diaboli: Wen uah resha fannala, rasha hei?

Or, possibly no words at all, so that the -player- will not be able to understand if the character does not.

<player> says six words in Diaboli you do not understand.

It is possible that you would know part of the language in question (based on time spent reading, or being taught by a teacher) so as to sound like this:

"How *uah you *fannala, my friend?"

The reason behind this is that our -characters- would know (or not know) the languages whether we do or not. This calls for game mechanics, rather than RP.

[Shooree]

<sheepish> you have a point there, Master Moon. That solution would be the best and most useful by far. Its implementation would possibly be one of the most revolutionary steps that this game has ever made. It would distingusih it even further in the sea of mmorpgs. I love it and support you with all my heart, I really do. But it has nothing to do with this. Almost nothing.</shepish>

This is fun. I might go that far as to say that it's similar to l'artpourl'artism. A few people with nothing better to do late at night that fantasize and put their linguistic hats on. And if we get a kick out of doing it, then hey. But your proposal rocks. 

thank you for being a bright example of constructive criticism and forum etiquecy once again, as well.   

[Dilphemor]

This brings me to the conclusion that with the introduction of ingame languages the policy should be changed like following:

All chat in public channels should generally either be in English or, if it is in any other language than English (whether real or one of the official artificial languages conceived especially for PlaneShift like Enkien), a direct translation should be provided subsequently.

I think this is a good general solution that also would solve the steady "why the hell cant i talk [put any language here]?!?!" with the answer - You can, but you have to provide a direct translation to english.

Actually, I think that would kill it.  I would quickly grow weary of saying the same thing twice every time I say something.  I would just drop the freakin' Enkien and speak English.  I think it can be RP'ed like any RL conversation between two individuals who don't speak the same language.  They manage to get through it in RL, so why not in RP?

[themule]

I would create a 'feature' of the filter to automatically convert your speech into the tongue you are speaking by use of a command.

Unless you want a real translator, it is possibile to have engine support for languages.

That's the way some LPMUDs implement the 'language' skill. Instead of use the 'say' command there's 'rsay' which lets you specify the language (r for race). Since there's only one skill, you can't really learn a single language. When you hear some words not in your race language, either you get a message "xxx says something..." or you do get the words, but mangled with random chars (I feature I presonally don't like, but it's quite effective since sometime you can make something out of it, sometimes you don't get a single word). At higher skill levels, mangling is reduced and you can understand almost everything.

A different LPMUD I've played had extensive language support with one skill for each language, and training sessions based on listening. In order to learn a language, you either had to listen to other players (speaking natively) or ask a NPC to tell you some stories using that language. The process was very time consuming.

On PS, with each skill split into theory and practice, you could learn a language the usual way (PP+money) and practice just by using it.

Again, this has nothing to do with developing a whole, real, language.