what about the Hell?

[Idoru]

Bugger and hell are not even in the same league IMO. (sorry if using either word caused any offence to those delicate members of this forum)

It ends up being a very slippery slope if we remove every thing that could possibly cause any kind of offense to anyone anywhere.

Do we end up changing the models of female characters so they cover their hair or wear hijabs or niqabs so we dont offend some muslims?
Stop male players from having short hair so we dont offend some Sikhs?
Let same sex characters marry (or have civil partnerships) so as not to offend homosexual people?

You cant possily avoid offending every one in the world.

As I said in the thread about the NPC who used the word bugger 'Just use common sense'.

I also dont recall whether I raised the terms 'Damn' and 'Dammit' in that thread or in a PM but that should be banned aswell if it is the case that  we should neuter this game completely.

[eldoth_terevan]

Well said, Idoru. Start doing this for one or two offended people and pretty soon you have to do it for everybody. And there is no way to prevent everybody from being offended at something.

[Induane]

I'm not sure I follow the reason for using the word "Hell" in a guild name being considered OOC.  Its a word in the English language.  Its not a proper noun.  I can use a ton of other words in the English language as much as is deemed appropriate and is not a restricted curse word. In fact despite reading all the rules about guild and character names I"m not sure I even understand where the lines are drawn.  A long while ago a person used the name Eifel as his character name.  His name got renamed for being too similar to Eiffel which is the name of an architect who has a tower bearing his namesake.  It wasn't even spelled the same, and the tower was just named after a person. If there were a famous tower called the John Tower would I be forbidden to use the name John in game? These things are not clearly defined.  The grey areas persist in what valid English language words are IC and which are OOC.  Hell as a word in the English language is NOT just a noun, and even as a noun its true meaning that is often conceived as a place of torture in religion is only a portion of the meaning.  In fact I would assume the word hell is probably used more as an interjection - like "What the hell is that thing? A tefusang??"  I don't think anyone would be slaughtered for OOC discourse with an exclamation like that.  "Lets beat the hell out of this Ulbernaught!"  Once again valid in PS terms as far as I'm concerned.  Rules would get very icky if we started saying that it was ok to use the word hell in battle or to describe a situation but OOC to use in a guild name based on the part of speech in which it was used. 

A better question is whether or not the general PS populous would find it offensive, and whether or not its a word that could be stated at any time.  As far as I'm concerned if you're allowed to say it in game you're allowed to use it in your guild title.

/rant

[Datruth]

Adding on to what Induane said(i read his post wrong the first time lol):

If you need convincing, and you're still on the fence, do this and see if it changes your opinion.

1) Read Laragorns post, "Hell is not OOC or IC, It's Grey area and it's still a toss up, up to Talad to decide"
"Should we put all guilds names into speculation, wouldn't most fail?"

2) Read my post "Do you really want to destroy a guild's name and Ruin their RP when their name isn't ruining your RP at all"

3) Read Idoru's Post, "Getting rid of offending things would mean to remove nearly everything"

4) Read Peacer's "Protending the Guild leader's name was Hell, allowing the Guild to remain IC"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Here's what i do know:

1) Hell isn't definitevly OOC or IC, it's grey area.

2) Hell will not ruin most peoples Rpes.

3) Working together as a community is better than Ruining each other's RP trying to rip each other apart.

~~Datruth

[Final warning. The open forums are not the place for discussion of actions taken by the moderation staff.  Again, if you disaggree with actions taken by the moderation staff, send a PM or email to an admin detailing your concerns, and they will take action they deem to be appropriate.  Next violation I see from you, I will reconmend to our admins you be temporarily removed of your posting abilities.  Again, this is your final warning. --Neko]

[Your name wasn't even mentioned in this post, i didn't even reference to anything you said.
What are you smoking neko?]
~~Datruth

[bilbous]

Could I start a guild of cat people called the "Expectorating Enkidukai" who go around spitting on everyone and everything? Should I be allowed to? Guilds are in the game due to popular demand but there is no reason they have to be allowed at all. It would be hard to prevent people from forming loose associations but the system does not have to encourage them at all.

[emeraldfool]

Hell?

1. Who the hell gets offended by the word 'hell'? You'd hafta be one hell of a prude...

2. Hell is a grey area. Most games have 'Hellfire' spells and 'Hellhounds' and 'Hellblades' without even thinking about it. It's just another word for 'chaos' or 'evil power'.

3. Like others have said, if your gripe is that Hell doesn't exist in Planeshift and thusly shouldn't be a word because nobody had to refer to it in Yliakum's history, then technically nobody should speak English, because the English never existed in Yliakum's history...

[Nikodemus]

Most games have 'Hellfire' spells and 'Hellhounds' and 'Hellblades' and don't deserve to be called RP.

But reading Induane post, I came to a conclussion:
The hell is used in way too many various ways to be banned, although we need to realise what does it mean in PS. The best way is to treat it as synonym of deatch realm. But then we need to realize few things. No things hell fires, since DR is dark and cold place, rather than hot. No hellhounds in the form you imagine them (red skin, burning eyes and so on). Hellblade won't burn or be cold, but rather deadly cold.

And changing a meaning or banning the word hell is not the same as banning the whole languange. Language is a tool of communication and when needed different words are created. Example: Azure Sun. There is no such thing in RL, but it is english language.

[Parallo]

If I called a guild "Heaven's Ylians" would you automaticly think of the Death Realm? Would it be acceptable to use the word heaven even though it definitevly doesn't exist in Yliakum?

[Nikodemus]

We used to say it's a heaven in my mouth (or something like that) while eating something really good. In this context heaven means something really tasty. We should realise which meanings are possible i Yliakum and when it obviously doesn't fit and so we should not make for example guild names refering to the wrong meaning.
Of course the perfect situation would be if we had in Yliakum its own smiliarities, like using death realm words without meaning the death realm instead, like we do it with the word hell. I hope you see what i mean. But 99.9% of people aren't going to learn everything thiis. But nontheles we should remember about PS setting al the time.

Its like you would tell in RL to a thief w ho is pointing a gun towards you: Please don't kill me, i don't want end in the Death Realm.
Death Realm, wtf is that?

[mektar]

You could always use the words relegious meaning (tormenting fire) and get something with that. Though I must say that you can't force those guys to change the name when your own npc's use it.

uhm what npc's use the name hell?

Grok Idon tells you: Ah, *****, I made some good deals with ***. Ok, I will tr
y my best to understand the nature of this sword. [Grok rubs the top of a opale
ring wear in his left hand ... The sword starts to tremble and unexpectedly esca
pes his hands and attacks him! After the slash the sword drops to the ground, no
t moving anymore]. HEY! What the hell! The sword attacked me! It seems to have a
 will on its own! Was some trick done by you?

Grok Idon uses the word "hell". I replaced a pronoun and a name with asterisks in an attempt to keep this quote from becoming a spoiler.

[Parallo]

I think you missed the reason behind my 'Heaven's Ylians' example. Its obviously a dreadful guild name. Heaven and hell are part of the same idea. Saying Hell is okay but heaven is not is like saying that You can have Yin but not Yang. Identifing Hell as the Death Realm is awful reasoning. Its taking a part of PS and giving it a name from RL. It is very, very much along the same lines as calling a Tria a Dollar. Would a guild called 'Nirvana'a Dermorians' be okay? Hells dwarves is the same idea.

[Datruth]

If I called a guild "Heaven's Ylians" would you automaticly think of the Death Realm? Would it be acceptable to use the word heaven even though it definitevly doesn't exist in Yliakum?

You don't know what does or does not exist definitevely in Ylaikum, we discussed this already, read laragorns post.

As for whether or not it exists in game, as mentioned above, it is used by an NPC, so i can say the phrase does exist.

I think you missed the reason behind my 'Heaven's Ylians' example. Its obviously a dreadful guild name. Heaven and hell are part of the same idea. Saying Hell is okay but heaven is not is like saying that You can have Yin but not Yang. Identifing Hell as the Death Realm is awful reasoning. Its taking a part of PS and giving it a name from RL. It is very, very much along the same lines as calling a Tria a Dollar. Would a guild called 'Nirvana'a Dermorians' be okay? Hells dwarves is the same idea.

Hells dwarves... is the same as nirvana's dermorians..... really? In what world?

Identifing Hell as the Death Realm is awful reasoning.

When a person uses that word, the DR automatically comes to mind.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Even if all these arguments are fruitless, and you still don't like them.

Even if you don't see that it's in the grey area.

Even if you feel it's o.k to Ruin that guilds RP because they arn't ruining yours.

The name still works, read Peacers post.

What peacer basically suggested was making the founding father of the guild a man named Hell, and that he lead a group that later became their guild.

No matter what, this guild name will be o.k.

Even if we scrap out all the grey.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So again, it's your choice, feel free to argue all you want about how this guild's name NEEDS to be scrapped.
But know, one day, your guild name will be scrapped as well, if we keep picking away at each other.

My solution: If it doesn't break people's Roleplaying and it isn't specifically vulgar, and the average person is fine with it, you let it remain.
It's either that, or define the settings perfectly, so we have no more grey area, or atleast not these huge gaps we have now.

~~Datruth

[Parallo]

Its not gray. Hell does not exist in Yliakum. Neither does heaven. The Death Realm does and it has none of the charictaristics of either. Using your logic in the situation if we don't know that hell doesn't exist in Yliakum how do we know Microsoft doesn't exist in Yliakum?

Edit: Picking apart their RP? I invite the guild leader himself to give an RP reason for the name of his guild. I remember on one occasion said person wanted to form an alliance with the Dark Empire because the name sounded cool. That single instance should speak for itself.

[Akaye]

* Akaye sighs

Ok, say it with me people ...... deeeeeeeeath Reaaaaaaalm. Again D.E.A.T.H ... R.E.A.L.M. That is what it is called. This is a level in a game that is suppose to not relate to the real world. It is a place in which you are sent to the moment when you die or join the game for the first time. Though it is easy to compare RL hell to the DR, it wasn't made to be the same or even compared I am sure. It also wasn't created for you all to argue over because this is a place in which we are supposed to not live in the boundaries of RL but use our imaginations. Comparing the DR to Hell is not doing that. Think about it.

As for quibbles with in game guild names ....  I mean seriously does seeing "hell or heaven" in a guild name really ruin role-play? I know it doesn't for me because I don't let it. If I don't like something in planeshift I have choices to make for my character.

(1) Either I don't interact with the guild and it's role-plays.
(2) I accept it and move on.
(3) Contact a GM or Dev and explain my issue and reasons why it bothers me.

If the Gm's haven't changed it then it is safe to assume that it isn't going to be changed (Or maybe no one petitioned it so it wasn't a huge concern).  I do admit that someone using the word "hell or heaven" in their guild name is lacking originality and it also makes me wonder how much thought was put into this guild. Still the guild name doesn't really matter. It is the guild quality that we so despreatly needing in planeshift. If this guild proceeds to accomplish some sort of structure then really that is great. To restrict every name that maybe obvious in the RL will cripple the one thing we as players value and that is the freedom to create in planeshift.

[Parallo]

They are ruining their own RP and noone elses. Naming it something that is in RL and not in PS is making any RP rhat that is involved in invalid.