Creation of a Guild

[bilbous]

I didn't suppose the idea would be well received but the game would still be free. Guilds are fluff that have little to do with the game. At least this idea would give some control back to the developers. If you don't like the idea of using this to support development with real money you could always auction off positions with trias. Of course implimenting such a system short of a wipe would not work well.

As new lands get developed, new guilds or guild chapters would open up. For guilds that have chapters in the various towns there could be a governing council with representatives from each chapter. These representatives could be elected from the chapter members.

Anyone wanting to form a clique outside the settings need not have game support anyway. They are, of course, free to set up and run them outside the game (website/forums etc). They can even cluster together in game and hold their role plays as they wish. This would remove the necessity for any kind of functionality or GM intervention.

[lordraleigh]

There is no need for such complicated things around...
The overall quality of the guilds and organizations is a reflex of the overall quality of the community.
And sometimes... limiting concepts is not a quite decent option... Just because the game uses the term "guild" not everything should be literally considered as one... specially on the underground.
About registering "guilds" to get official status or acknowledgement on the underground... what stop one from buying a land or a house to turn it in the "headquarters" or to secretly build an hideout?
After all, "guilds" do not become a matter of pleasing the interests of the Octarchs or of an underground crime lord enough to be acceptable... but of trias to fund their initial structure.

How would a guild with no RP grow if there were no "leets" around? That is the problem, the community needs quality, not quantity of players.

The matter of founding an organization should be based on internal interests from its founders and initial members, not external... or it would limit deeply the possibilites to what the existing powers in PS Settings wish.

And Bilbous... it is Planeshift, not Plane$hift ! I hope your idea was a big joke!

[bilbous]

I don't know what the big deal is, It wasn't about profiteering, it was about encouraging development. New hardware, better pipeline, module building incentives. I guess it does not bother me because I would be unlikely to pay to join a guild in any event unless I wanted an excuse to donate. A guild membership would become like a PBS Tote Bag. It lets you fell like you are getting something tangible even though you know PBS got it free in the first place. I do agree that PS should avoid selling players a significant advantage but I do not see guild membership as such. Especially ones such as I proposed. You could have an alternate system to pay an amount several orders of magnitude larger so that anyone could work towards a position as well. Free does not always imply without cost. Somebody is paying for the bandwidth, why not players who want extra functionality?

[Bartholin]

I don't know what the big deal is, It wasn't about profiteering, it was about encouraging development. New hardware, better pipeline, module building incentives. I guess it does not bother me because I would be unlikely to pay to join a guild in any event unless I wanted an excuse to donate. A guild membership would become like a PBS Tote Bag. It lets you fell like you are getting something tangible even though you know PBS got it free in the first place. I do agree that PS should avoid selling players a significant advantage but I do not see guild membership as such. Especially ones such as I proposed. You could have an alternate system to pay an amount several orders of magnitude larger so that anyone could work towards a position as well. Free does not always imply without cost. Somebody is paying for the bandwidth, why not players who want extra functionality?

well actually we are paying for the game.. we are testing the ideas of the greators, the skills of the gms and the down right "funness" of the entire project.

[Garile]

@bilbous
I may be starting to sound like a broken record, but few people seem to get where I am coming from so I guess I have to say it again

How do you explain this IC? The one who is willing to pay the most $$$ OOC gets the best position IC? Giving the position of guildleader to someone who may be inactive?

Now an inactive guildleader is annoying enough at the moment, imagine if you would have actually paid for your position in that guild and see it die becuase someone else had more $$$ to spend but is hardly ingame anymore.

Any good guild will promote people becuase of their contributions to the guild ingame and only OOC if his efforst involve the website and forums what can be made IC by making someone responsible for the guildhouse.

An ingame auction would be worse for RP aswell becuase instead of RP being the "pricetag" you want to make it so powerlevelers would have even more of an advantage.

[bilbous]

Garile: Who gets to be President? is it free to campaign? In  a medieval setting the person who got to set up the guild was the one who paid the lord of the manor and the lord of the manor got there by paying the Governor of the territory be he Duke, Count or whatever They got where they were by paying the King. The payment was not always cash sometimes it was military support, sometimes it was a daughter and military neutrality. Sometimes it was bloodline.

The point is that the guilds being an official part of the setting they could not die. If someone pays for a position of authority within the guild and then promptly disappears for a long period they would be demoted by the system. The more important the position the more frequent the characters presence would be required thus a mere member could buy membership and then never play the character again without being booted from the guild but the guildmaster night be required to be present for 7 hours every week or be demoted. It strikes me that there could be a condition where members of a guild could petition to have a character demoted. In the case of the leader the petition would go the the GMs and be built into the guild system so that a plurality of active members must sign on for it to be considered. Lesser positions would be petitioned to the guildmaster.

As far as website and forums go there would be no need for such as there could be the guild secretary, an NPC that functions as a message board and a guildhouse and commons where guild members could congregate to have discussions.

As I said before if you want to have an unofficial group of people centered around some theme or other, you are perfectly free to do so without tying up game resources to do so.

It is a radically different concept of guilds than most people have but most people want what all the other games provide. I thought PS was supposed to try to be different.

[Garile]

PS promises to be different in that it wont do something becuase "everyone does it" and look more to what would be realistic. There is a difference between that and being different just to be different.

Your arguments only apply to the ingame auction. All the comparisons to RL guilds are no arguments to have OOC money decide who gets what position.

Also there are plenty of organizations who are around, have power and didn't pay the goverment any money to be allowed to exist. There are also plenty of organizations that did pay the goverment and don't decide their ranks on money.

Who gets to be President? is it free to campaign?

1. as far as I know Yliakum isn't an democracy.
2. The cost is the campaign. He isn't buying the position he needs to pay becuase there are so many people who have a vote he wouldn't be able to reach everyone in different ways.
3. A guild and a country are hardly comparable if most guilds don't even have more then 50 members. Of wich how many would actually have a vote who becomes their leader?

Last but not least I still haven't heard why this would be a good idea. Your comparisens show it might be a possible choice, but seeing how OOC getting money is at the moment I would imagine one needs stronger arguments then that to have tria decide who becomes highranked in a guild.

[bilbous]

Vigesimi normally come from the Craft Guilds of each level, and their position is hereditary. Nevertheless is not too rare to find some high citizens that are elected thanks to people acclamation, taking place of Vigesimi that are dead, that are judged inept or that are found to be guilty of thievery.

here (Yliakum appears to be  a plutocracy much like the most real countries) and

During these short meetings the members of the External Circle can elect a new Octarch if the previous is dead or too old.

also there.
Thus the guilds are directly involved in the government which is democratic but without universal sufferage. Therefor guilds as they are currently designed are completely out of context.

I suppose you think making money in-game is out of context because there is an inexhaustable supply of monsters to kill and minerals to mine and that the NPCs will buy whatever you bring them. If this is what you mean by "how OOC getting money is" I do no know how it will ever be in context. If that is not what you mean then I do not understand the comment at all.

I had thought the society was more democratic due to the character design choices that had you participating in political campaigns but this is one of those things which seems inconsistant. Apparently though, the guilds have hereditary leadership so one wonders how they originated in the first place.

Personally I haven't heard a good reason to have guilds at all except that some people like to power trip over others or huddle together to the exclusion of people they disdain. The main reason I see that we have guilds is because every other game has them too.

[Bartholin]

hes still talking about your idea with the paying of REAL LIFE money <<< OOC money

[bilbous]

If that were the case why say "to have tria decide who becomes highranked in a guild"? I never mentioned once selling trias for cash.

[Garile]

Your arguments only apply to the ingame auction. All the comparisons to RL guilds are no arguments to have OOC money decide who gets what position.

This was intended on ooc money and then I continued with the ic money as that seemed to be what Bilbous seemed to focus on in his arguments

Vigesimi normally come from the Craft Guilds of each level

Why this is the case I don't know but it obviously points that not all guilds have a vote just the craft ones.

The main reason I see that we have guilds is because every other game has them too.

I know a very good reason. How many groups, organizations, guilds or other gatherings do we have and has history shown? How often is it that it was just one individual that changed the world? It's almost always a group of people and the closest one can normally get to changing it on your own is by example or by being the leader of a movement.

And even if you aren't thinking worldchanging look just how many clubs we have. A volleyballclub, a badmintonclub, a chessclub, a bridgeclub, a folkdancegroup, etc etc.

It's human nature to form groups to change things. If it is for simple things as to make it easier to do a certain sport or were it something grander. To not allow a way to form groups like in the guildsystem would make the game just a bunch of individuals and I don't think that would be a good thing, not for realism or for funs sake.

[bilbous]

Perhaps vigesemi come from the craft guilds because they are the only ones officially sanctioned by the state. I would suggest that this would indicate that these officially sanctioned guilds would be the ones that are regulated, all others being unregulated.To explain what I meanlet us take the example of student organisations at a university. There are many organisations set up in a typical university but the student council only has so much space and funds to allocate. So what happens is that there is a process where prospective clubs apply for operating funds and/or space. The council looks at the applications and then decides who best fits their priorities and allocates resources to these groups. All others likely get nothing more than a common bullitin board to post their notices on. My suggestion is that the craft guilds are the ones which should have game resources allocated for and indeed be developed as per my previous suggestion -- static positions players can aspire to and the rest -- and that other guilds be left to their own resources, set up your webpage and forums where you will gather where you will in game but do not expect any specific resources to be allocated to you other than perhaps the common bullitin board for posting messages. This would have the advantage of promoting in context actions through the supported craft guilds, setting specific politicking etc. focusing development on setting appropriate functionality and generally reducing the need for OOC policing in guild creation.

I doubt I will get too much support for this idea. It seems logical to me though.