Well, what about atheist, atheist is a religion as well
A primary definition of
religion in majority of dictionaries is similar to:
"Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe"Anything else is listed under that definition and is not primary. And
atheism as a religion is usually listed under
jargon. So, obviously it depends on a context, and I think that the context of religion is clear in this particular case.
...since diabilo wernt lured from another god, this would also give some credit to not having a said god
PlaneShift history states otherwise - "Talad and Laanx prayed to Vodùl
to lure some races from the other gods and to bring them to Yliakum. Vodùl agreed their requests...".
OR.. maybe another god made them as a project he he.. and just hasnt gotten around to finding is way werd children 
I don't know, that sounds like a huge stretch to me.
The history says those methods of arriving, meaning they are the only known ways of getting there according to that history. It doesn't say that no races arrived of their own will (space-ship, meteor, home-brew portal, through the death-realm (only if there is a single death-realm that all beings go to)). It also doesn't say that other races couldn't create their own races.
Is this in reference to the
four ways I mentioned? If so, I'm not sure how it changes anything in regards to Diaboli's arrival. PS history clearly states that Diaboli arrived through the second portal, created by Vodul in the stone labyrinths (Ylians and Enkidukai arrived through the first portal, which was not inside the stone labyrinths), and their arrival was observed by both, Laanx and Talad. And since Lemur, Kran, Ylians and Enkidukai have settled on the first level of Yliakum, it's very likely that Diaboli have settled somewhere on the second level, if there was no more room left on the first. So, basically, even if there are other speculative ways to arrive in Yliakum, Diaboli did not arrive by those methods.
As for their religion, a religion can lack a god, or have many gods. Take the Force, for example.
But whatever the case is, the primary definition of
religion always includes some kind of a supernatural power (like "the Force"), which isn't always seen as a "god" but is supernatural nonetheless. And yes, a religion can have many gods too. However, not a single one is named for Diaboli, even though PS history states that they have at least one, which they did not give up their faith in.
If Diaboli never had a god to begin with, why does it make such a distinction with "except the Diaboli" quote? Wouldn't it be better to say "except the Diaboli, who did not believe in any god to begin with" then? Considering a reference to "previous gods" and an earlier one to "lure from other gods", it doesn't quite imply atheism.
In many stories and movies, for example, where there is a confrontation between a main hero and a demon, a demon or a devil would often joke "I'm an atheist" when it comes to religious talk. But it still clearly shows that they worship the devil, are the devil or that their master is the devil, who is a supernatural power and is essentially a god to them. However you define it, they usually have supernatural abilities way beyond an average human being. Humans usually have to rely on various trinkets, their faith, and basically do all the work themselves to battle with such demons. Those demons, on the other hand, get much more direct gifts and powers from their deities.
Another possibility is that they see themselves as minor-gods. Maybe they just don't like the idea of "big brother". Or they could have displeased some god/priest once and he put a curse on them, making them allergic to the power of other gods.
Sounds like a big stretch. The only other reference to "other gods" in PS history is this:
Other gods, older and more powerful than they, told them about great tasks they would have to perform when their worshipers became ready to follow their directions.
That certainly does not imply a "minor god".
As for a curse, that too sounds like a stretch. Laanx cursed the whole of Yliakum, for example, and no one became "allergic" to other gods. I'm sure you're going to say that it didn't affect anyone because "Talad protected them". It certainly says nothing about any curse on Diaboli. And I'm trying to rely on the information that
is available to us, rather than speculating too much.
I think the Black Flame is a whole 'nother ball of twine, but it could be related. It seems more like a minor-god trying to gain power to me, possibly a "native" of the planet.
Yes, that is why I said it sounded like a huge stretch, if that was the case. Black Flame sounds more like a "local yocal" to me as well.
Maybe it says Vulcan style because the Diaboli home islands air is full of black smoke and has rivers of blood(magma?).
It does say in Diaboli description that their homeland suggests a presence of a volcano. However, Vulcan is also known as "god of volcanoes". Like I said though, it's probably just a coincidence anyway but still a fun one.
I think Diaboli are atheists, because there are but two gods in Yliakum and this Black Flame thing. There cant be much more, because then it would have been mentioned somewhere on the setting pages.
Sure but you can't expect the settings pages to be perfect and without mistakes, do you? It has already been mentioned by many that there seem to be quite a few plot holes and contradictions in PS history. Not to mention that we are not being told everything, possibly not to spoil the surprises. Besides, consider the possibility that the story is still in its infancy and has not been worked out and ironed out. I've seen stories where the writers made a big "OOPS!" before.
Vodul and other gods dont count, because they dont reside in Yliakum or near it anyway, so they have no connections to Yliakum inhabitants. EDIT: The setiing pages are about 10 years old, and contain some mistakes(like Yliakum is a city) and some things might have changed, so its not a compleaty reliable source of information, but the best we have.
As long as the gods are aware where their people are, and as long as they are still worshiped, there is always a connection. Vodul and other gods were aware of what Laanx and Talad were doing, they even tried to warn them, and it was Vodul who created the portals in the first place, so certainly they can have a connection to their people, if they choose to do so. Of course, most have given up the faith in their previous gods,
except Diaboli. Hence, my question.
And there you go, you said it yourself that the history isn't a completely reliable source of information but the best we have, hence why I'm asking a question rather than privately making conclusions and being satisfied with them.
Well, Vodul would be the obvious answer for the Diaboli God. If the Diaboli were lured to Yliakum by Vodul, I assume that it is from one of Voduls worlds.
I'm not sure if Vodul would be the obvious choice. Vodul is the
god of future events. Diaboli seem to be more fire and darkness oriented. Vodul created the portals, sure but the luring was supposed to happen from
other gods.
The whole idea of
luring other races is that they had to have been looking for something different in the first place OR that a god of some sort has made an appearance to them with a promise of something
alluring. It doesn't describe what each race has been looking for and for what reasons but it does give some examples. For example, Dermorians were trying to escape from the Nomadic Knights, so new places of settlement sounded very appealing to them. It also says that when Diaboli have arrived through a portal, they thought to have reached a "promised land". The primary definition of the promised land without reference to real-life religion is something similar to:
"A longed-for place where complete satisfaction and happiness will be achieved."
"By extension, an idyllic place or state of being that a person hopes to reach, especially one that cannot be reached except by patience and determination, is called a “Promised Land.”Also, without directly referring to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, "promised land" is also something that is promised by a god to his people. Hence, the word "promised". Otherwise, promised by whom?
Although it does put "promised land" in quotes, so who knows what it really means.
Diaboli description states that they are the only race that thinks of Yliakum as a real paradise. And one of the definitions of the "promised land" is also "Heaven". So, go figure.
Just because most of Diaboli do not believe in Talad, doesn't mean you cannot choose to worship Talad. It depends on what you plan to RP.
But you see, there is a problem with that. Diaboli inherently seem to have a penalty to holy/blessed/sacred places and items. If a Diaboli chooses to follow Talad, will that penalty be lifted? Surely, a god is powerful enough to lift such a "curse", if the curse of Laanx didn't affect any races? If not, then perhaps Diaboli's god is more powerful than Talad or Laanx combined? If the penalty is not lifted for a Diaboli who is a follower of Talad or even Laanx, then it makes absolutely no sense RP-wise to follow any of those religions. In fact, it makes for a horrible RP, in my opinion.
Let's see - hypothetically speaking, we have a Diaboli who follows Talad but is punished by anything that is blessed by Talad and feels uncomfortable inside his temple. Hmm...
Also, arn't you being a bit picky?
How is asking questions being picky? Those who don't ask questions never learn anything. I enjoy these kinds of discussions. And if PS history is considered to be unreliable and outdated, it makes even more sense to ask a question rather than be content with a private conclusion. Besides, things were starting to get a bit stale around here. I find a fresh perspective to be a good thing. C'mon, admit it, you guys like it.
Aren't Diaboli allergic to all holyness? Wouldn't that mean that they can't take any god? I'm guessing they can't survive a god's presence because they're naturally allergic to gods and therefore they wouldn't survive a belief.
The question is can
holy be
evil? There are expressions like "Holy Hell" but "holy" is almost always associated with "saintly" or "good" in most popular religions. For example, demons are traditionally considered to be
unholy, and they certainly do not believe in God. But they do believe and are closely associated with the Devil, who to them is essentially a god, a supernatural being with supreme power, who grants them evil and dark supernatural abilities. And of course, those demons traditionally don't like crosses in Christianity or other holy items. But what about the items and blessings from the devil? Are they considered to be holy or unholy? Undead in the fantasy settings are traditionally considered to be unholy but have supernatural powers and abilities from their respective deities. And if a hateful and vengeful god like Laanx can give blessings or if a dark and twisted god/deity like Black Flame can give them as well, are they automatically considered to be holy or unholy? Why can't Laanx or Black Flame be the Diaboli's Devil so to speak?
Explain to me how one is "born" being allergic to "holy" items/places/etc anyway? Even the traditional demons, vampires and other beings have some kind of ties to the "Dark Lord" or "Devil", which then, and
only then, makes them be uncomfortable against traditional "holy" items. BUT they gain their own supernatural powers and abilities in return, which are usually more direct than humans who have to rely on faith and trinkets and pretty much do all the work themselves. I know this is debatable because some writings make that connection clear, while others do not. For example, vampire lore may include an evil deity/god or it may just state that they hate anything holy. But then you have to take into account that some vampire lore has them run at the sight of a cross, while other has them laughing in your face and melting the cross away and calling it "misguided fairy tale tricks". Same with demons - in some lore they are afraid of a cross, in other they can melt it away and laugh manically, and it usually takes a lot more than a cross to battle them.
I don't know of any other lore or writing where a person is simply born to be "unholy". And I mean "born", not raised from the dead like "undead". It almost always involves an attachment to an evil god/deity of some sort, whom they consider to be their god and reject the other existing "good" god, they almost always get their own blessings and holy items (or unholy, if you will), which give them benefits. And those benefits are usually a lot more direct in their powers. Notice that regular humans/beings almost always have to rely on their faith, various trinkets, crosses, bible, and basically do all the battling and work themselves, hoping to prevail, while evil being with evil deities have much more direct powers and supernatural abilities, with their gods being directly involved in their lives. And they too believe and have faith in their evil gods.
Diaboli seem to have neither - they don't have any noticable supernatural powers (please, don't bring the bonus saving throw vs elemental spells, this doesn't even come close), and they have all the penalties that usually come with turning to the dark side.
Also, remember, that whatever your definition of "holy" is, it is
always related to religion, and if it is related to religion, then why don't Diaboli have their own but only a penalty to someone else's? Think about it.
The span and effect, and where a god's presence lies in the PS world is left to be discussed. All I can say is if the Diaboli had a religion they'd have holy items, and that would be a rather unpleasant experience.
And why can't it be "unholy" items with an unholy religion? It would probably only be "unholy" to those who would not recognize their god and religion. Laanx followers especially do not even want to acknowledge the existence of Talad.
Also, aren't holy items emanating a special presence of a god, a piece of his/her power, a piece of themselves and would that not mean that Diaboli can't stand the Godly power. Gods are empowered by their believers and wouldn't that mean that the power of belief is in fact the power of the god which hurts the Diaboli. That would mean that the Diaboli are allergic to the power believing and therefore can't have a religion, believe.
And why would a race have a hereditary or a genetic penalty, if you will, to the "power of belief". Explain to me how
religion and
biology have crossed the paths in the case of Diaboli?
Thanks.
Don't you think that if someone write something, it would be good to consider it?
Exactly, hence why you should've read and considered the quotes from the official PS history.
So, a fact is you have problems with understanding the english language and meaning of its words.
Oh, it's a fact now, is it? No, the
fact is that you decided to play dumb and got burned for it, and now you're angry and decided to resort to personal attacks. As for understanding the English language - look who's talking!
Read and comprehend the quotes I posted before turning all sour.
So, explaining like to a child: The diaboli did not necessarly gave up on their faith, because they could as well have no faith at all and so no god.
I could point out some mistakes you've made in "english language" already but I won't stoop to your low level. Here's my explanation to you "like to a child":
If there is no faith to begin with, there is
nothing to give up, so the "except" distinction either isn't necessary at all or an addition of "except Diaboli, who never followed a god to begin with" would make more sense.
Anyway, you're not my brother nor are you my mother or father, and we're certainly not married (Thank God!), so I don't have to listen to your crap and personal attacks. Shove it to yourself and keep them to yourself.
Take care.
