Author Topic: Resposibility and Honesty  (Read 8301 times)

Xylaal

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Resposibility and Honesty
« on: February 06, 2007, 04:00:23 pm »
C'mon Staffers! I know this is your baby and you are protective but are you not in the least bit responsible for the incident Eid was trying to alert you to? Do you, staff, not take even a little responsibility for being slow on the uptake. It doesn't excuse what he did, it was against the rules - and we all know your staff has limited time - and yes, the game IS free and you are not paid - but if you are going to do a thing you should do it right or not do it at all. These can sometimes seem like excuses. Honesty and timeliness in your communication would have been preferred where it should perhaps been said that "Gosh, we'd like to Eid but we really don't have the personnel/ability to get right on that".

As I understand it, the problem was fixed rather quickly after he pulled his little stunt.

On a similar note, I do not vilify, nor do I blame all of you for this but clearly, upon occasion, you have issues with communication; you are human, and that is excusable. What is not excusable is a GM , on IRC, calling Eid "Hitler" and the demonization of a good character, a good person, a player that has, and is, loyal to this game and loves it. Do you not understand what would cause a person to do this? A player who has always played by the rules and who felt forced, compelled by what he saw as a BIG problem not being addressed.

Do what you'd like with this post, and ban me if you must...I hear it's all the rage these days to quell those voices who say things that are unpleasant. I had to post my views here because when I found out what had happened and why I felt so insulted by the one sidedness of this whole incident that it sadly soured the game for me. You must understand that from a players perspective it looks very different. To RolePlay, the players must believe in the game and they must have a blind trust in it. A trust that allows the character to get lost in the world and the mystery of the setting to be enjoyed. I have enjoyed this game and all of you very much. As a tester I hope you'll take my comments and improve your communication with players; even have designated testers who's sole responsibility is to test, forward players observations to you of the big problems in-game....or maybe you feel you have it covered by GM's (designated testers would be less intimidating and would be chosen from the folks who spend the most time in game) You'll see me peek in from time to time but I wont be in as much anymore. I am an older person an perhaps my patience with hypocrisies is more easily touched off than a younger...maybe I'm just a grump. But my friend Eid is a loyal player...know that.

One more thing. Talad. You have a great piece of art here. But when large issues are not addressed it foments frustration. Large issues should come first.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2007, 07:23:01 pm by Xylaal »

Suno_Regin

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Re: Resposibility and Honesty
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2007, 04:18:27 pm »
Now, from all I've read so far on the forums (not going ingame for a while), I hope I've got this right. Ok, someone discovered a glitch that allowed you to dup items, such as silverweaves. Eid reported it, but nothing happened, so he began abusing it and dropped a bunch of silverweaves around in Hydlaa so they would realize what a problem it's becoming, and fix it. Am I right so far?

If I am right, I agree, Eid was doing the right thing. In fact, it's probably the smartest idea I've seen from a PlaneShifter, because I've had to deal with the staff being lazy for nearly 2 years now. I find bugs on the daily basis, but nothing is done. It's been monthes and there still isn't an update. Like you said, it's a free game, they're people, they have their own lives, but if they're going to start something like this, they should at least know how to handle it.

Zan

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Re: Resposibility and Honesty
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2007, 04:45:24 pm »
I don't know Eid and I won't even bother to guess at his intentions. I've heard a plethora of versions ranging from the 'elevated to martyrdom' ones to the 'I didn't do it, my account was hacked!' ones. What I do know is what happened and I also know that, no matter the intentions it harmed more people than it should have, because of that I consider Eid's actions unthoughtful at best. A better action would have been acquiring a full in-game report of possible exploiters by going undercover, get a list of all the names and activities of these exploiters and then hand that in to the authorities. A long list would probably wake up the right people. No need to make things actually a lot worse to get noticed.

The Devs aren't always fast to straighten out bugs and in the case of serious exploits this is sometimes harmful for the in-game environment. I think that a part of the problem lies with communication, another part of the problem can never be avoided. There will always be players who prefer to keep an exploitable bug to themselves and try to gain from it. It can be hard to track those individuals down and the GMs can't be expected to find them all, not even with the help of the community.

The other part is communication .. sometimes it's not very clear what is an exploit and what isn't. For example with the crafting system there are ways to increase stock quality over the 'issued' limit = 300. Some of these ways are nothing more than simply crafting an item with a good skilled background, is this wrong, should those crafters destroy their products or even stop crafting at all? Or is the limit simply programmed wrong and will all be rectified when it gets reprogrammed? Other ways consist of certain actions that can increase quality .. are those wrong? Are they exploits or are they intended?

Then there is of course the difficulty of reporting an exploit. Anyone with half a brain knows they can't be reported on the forums because everyone who wants to can abuse it then .. the same goes for the bugtracker. So what do we do? PM a random Dev/GM and hope it ends up where it should? Personally .. I wouldn't know who to contact with an exploit if I found one.

Along with that, the option to select the gravity of a bug on the bugtracker .. personally I haven't used it much simply because I don't know what would be considered bad and what not. I'm admittedly reluctant to post the worst, most urgent bugs up there. Also the level of reply on the bugtracker has been bugging (no pun intended :P) me lately. Especially with bigger issues it would definitely be nice to have at least a reply like "We're looking into it, thanks for the report." just so you know you were heard. I can't really say if this already happens in cases like this since I never really posted an exploit, but it doesn't with all types of bugs. That much I know.

I am not going to stand up for Eid, he got what he asked for in my eyes .. but maybe a revision of bug reporting: a safe way to report exploits quickly and a quicker response regarding to those issues wouldn't be a bad thing.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2007, 04:48:40 pm by Zan »
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Suno_Regin

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Re: Resposibility and Honesty
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2007, 04:53:07 pm »
We have at least 3 or 4 ways to report bugs now. They're reported in the masses already, but the staff is brushing them off.

It won't really matter anyway. In the next update or two, I garruntee you this bug will be back, I bet my life on it. Just like how the fire spell crash bug is back, the darkness bugs are back (now in rainbow colors), and other bugs that have been patched in the past. This game will never be finished because they can't take a little time to fix things and make sure they stay fixed. I don't even understand how they can actually bring back old bugs every single time they make an update. It's so annoying. When it's fixed it should stay fixed, but there's such a....neglect for these things, and because of that, they spend most of their time fixing bugs than making updates. The last update, or "version" whatever you want to call it, didn't do anything but fix bugs and bring back old ones. I didn't know Eid that well, but I can tell you his intentions were good. The staff needed a wake-up-call, and hopefully they're going to get their heads out of their asses and start paying more attention to these things.

Don't even start with the "it's a free game, they're people too" crap, because if they can't do what any staff on any other game can do and address these things, the game's going to die. I actually care about this game, I love the community, but the staff's neglect to these issues is going to be the game's end. All Eid did was make them address the problem sooner, and with the item and money wipe, he shouldn't be punished, he should be praised.

(I'm guessing he was banned?)

eldoth_terevan

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Re: Resposibility and Honesty
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2007, 05:09:40 pm »
Eid has spent countless hours and days of his life in this game. He loved it, this was self-evident. I have posted most of what I wanted to say in the now-locked thread. I know that he believed what he did was necessary. But he has gotten a ban (for a year), and we must all move on. I am going to miss seeing him around...

The issue is really that these things should be reported directly to the dev team, PM's from this forum would seem to be best so that there is a document trail, and repeating the PM if nothing seems to be happening. Karyuu has even said to report them to her, if you cannot figure out who the report should go to. From my impressions from a number of players I have spoken to, it would seem that the communication on this issue may have broken down at the GM level. I cannot say for sure.

I want to add one more thing. Based upon my knowledge about MySQL... this replication between connections is odd. I am guessing that this is a particularly obscure bug, and that it is probably not obvious where or how it is occuring. I know that people on the team are working hard on it, and probably losing some sleep, or even going crazy trying to figure out why it is happening.

Later: If a GM really called Eid "Hitler" on IRC then that is inexcusable, and it underscores the issues that the players have with the GMs in game. Many of the GMs I have interacted with have been polite and nice to deal with. As I am to understand it, that is not the most common experience with the GM team. Of course, it is hard to tell with hearsay.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2007, 05:44:11 pm by eldoth_terevan »

ThomPhoenix

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Re: Resposibility and Honesty
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2007, 05:17:21 pm »
Suno_Regin, I think you are horribly spoiled by commercial games.
This is open-source, the support is as good as the community causes it to be.
We're not evil. We're simply amazing.

Araye

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Re: Resposibility and Honesty
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2007, 05:34:52 pm »
I can see the frustration that may have caused Eid to use an exploit to the point of obsurdity to call attention to it.  But...

Our job as testers is to find bugs and report them during our playing of the game.  In my opinion, it is not our place to "force" the devs to fix a bug, even if we think it needs to be fixed NOW.  Even if we see people using the exploit to cheat.  All we can do is report the occurance to the GMs and hope the bug is fixed in the next release.  Well maybe not "all" we can do; we could also do like Xillix and join the dev team.  

I do agree with Suno to some degree that if this was a comercial product, bugs like this would be addressed quicker, but I disagree with his summation that the game will die.  Frustrated players will leave, but the game will not die.  I've personally seen several "generations" come and go now.  It will live on, but maybe not in your computer.

I hope Eid was not banned and I hope the devs consider his frustration before banning him.  We all make mistakes and his seems to have been noble.

I sometimes think that we (tester/players) feel we aren't being heard and that we feel we are more important than the other two groups (GMs/Devs).  That our issues with the game needs to be addressed immediately.  After all, without us, there is no game right?  But we really are just the other third of the game.  And an important thing for us to remember is that there will never be a lack of "us".  So breaking rules to call attention to problems really isn't a good idea unless you really consider your martyrdom to be "that important".

I would like to take a moment and thank the Dev and GM team for their work on this game.  I have seen so much progress since I first started playing and I do recognize the work you are all doing.  I may disagree with things at times or I may think that progress in certain areas isn't happening fast enough (Xordan, how's the balancing of magic coming along?  :innocent: ), but I can not be anything but thankful to each of you for your efforts.

Please consider "player frustration" when reading "harsh" posts.

Araye

edited for obscure wording
« Last Edit: February 06, 2007, 05:39:48 pm by Araye »

Suno_Regin

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Re: Resposibility and Honesty
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2007, 05:39:05 pm »
But no matter what the community does, only the staff has the power to fix these bugs. That's what I'm getting at.

If I could, like Araye said, I would join the dev team and put as much time as possible into fixing these things. I'm not very knowledged with computers, but if I was, I wouldn't let that go to waste, and I would actually fix these things as I see them. It seems like instead of fixing annoying bugs, they're busy banning people. Banning on a pre-alpha version is just stupid. There's gonna be a wipe, and probably another after that, which will get rid of all these exploits, so just fix the bugs, wipe, update what you need to, fix the bugs you're gonna somehow end up bringing back with that update, and finish the game. You focus on all the smallest things, like familiars...why do we even need those? They don't do anything. And groffletoe, what is that? Come on people, focus.

Karyuu

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Re: Resposibility and Honesty
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2007, 05:45:53 pm »
Suno, you are being an absolute ass. Quit calling us lazy and stop pretending that you're somehow going through a sort of agony "dealing" with us for two years. What bull ::) If you want to be treated respectfully here let me tell you right now that you are taking the wrong approach. I'm sick of sugaring down my words all the time, and I'm sure you can deal with my own honesty.

You understand very little of priorities, abilities, and goals - that much has been proven. We do as much as we can, whenever we can. If that doesn't suit you well enough, please take your complaining elsewhere.
Judge: Are you trying to show contempt for this court, Mr Smith?
Smith: No, My Lord. I am attempting to conceal it.

Parallo

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Re: Resposibility and Honesty
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2007, 05:55:52 pm »
Aye, the wipes are an inevitablity. Quit whining. I'm sure you don't want them to stop what they're already doing, right? Well complaining certainly doesn't encourage, particularly if they are doing it in their own free time. Even if I was being payed, I'd quit if my efforts were treated this way.
I suggest the statue of Laanx gets turned into a statue of Parallo <3. An NPC could never replace the huge hole he left in my heart when he died  :'(

ThomPhoenix

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Re: Resposibility and Honesty
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2007, 06:08:06 pm »
Quote
You focus on all the smallest things, like familiars...why do we even need those? They don't do anything. And groffletoe, what is that? Come on people, focus.
You keep amazing me, Suno... :(

Quote
It seems like instead of fixing annoying bugs, they're busy banning people.
Sigh, 1705 posts and you still haven't figured out that GMs aren't developers?

What you want is the developers to start seeing Planeshift as if it were their job.
You forget that for them Planeshift is just a hobby, the moment people force the devs to act as if they are at work, they'll quit.
No one ever said the development of Planeshift would be quick, the contrary actually. In my mind that's not bad at all, it's supposed to be fun after all. But if you can't cope with that...
« Last Edit: February 06, 2007, 06:14:04 pm by ThomPhoenix »
We're not evil. We're simply amazing.

acraig

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Re: Resposibility and Honesty
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2007, 06:10:47 pm »
I'm not very knowledged with computers, but if I was, I wouldn't let that go to waste, and I would actually fix these things as I see them.

I'm not very knowledged about medicine but I would actually make paralyzed people walk again.  I mean how lazy are they?  Both the doctors for not fixing them and those lazy paralyzed people.  Hell, their chair has wheels! How lazy is that? And some of them even stay in bed all day.  Don't get me started on people in comas

I'm not very knowledged about science but I would actually develop warp drive.  Our scientists today are so lazy, they've only got to the freaking Moon!  Common people, focus, we should be heading to Vega by now.  They are so lazy by focusing on things like fuel efficient cars and alternate power supplies.   Wow those guys have their heads up their asses or what?

I'm not very knowledged about crime but I would stop all the murderers.  Cops today now are so focused on things like stolen property and giving me a speeding ticket when I go 100 in a school zone.  Lazy pigs, they can't be bothered to do the hard work and stop people robbing banks.  I'd actually go to murderers and tell  them "Hey! Stop murdering people" and they would and that would show them.
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ThomPhoenix

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Re: Resposibility and Honesty
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2007, 06:12:22 pm »
Good one!  :D
We're not evil. We're simply amazing.

Zan

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Re: Resposibility and Honesty
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2007, 06:15:13 pm »
*cheers at Karyuu and Acraig*

...

*Then hopes that a few possibly good suggestions won't get lost because of one bitter player ranting about things he doesn't understand well*
Zan Drithor, Member of the Vaalnor Council
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Minks

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Re: Resposibility and Honesty
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2007, 06:19:14 pm »
/sarcasmmode on

Average dude gets handed a voucher for a weekend in Disneyland. Rides are free, first-class hotel and meals are free, evening show is free.
AD has to wait five minutes for his crab cocktail  :o.
And there's a construction site at the new ghost train ... OH NO!
AD stomps with his feet and tears his hair "I'll sue ya, lazy bunch of idiots, and anyway, where's my free party hat? :@#\"

/sarcasmmode off

C'mon my ranting friends, where's your common sense?