The Winch -- What are they thinking?

[Xillix Queen of Fools]

thanks tomt for cutting through the noise. Players, know that we are all concerned for your well-being; your thoughts have value to us. vitriol is needless, we are all friends here. I too once argued passionately for certain aspects of developement. No one on the dev team is insensitive to the plight of the player. we consider you first in every motion we make. this thread has caused me to pay far more attention then i should have to player concerns. we do mean the best by you. Those who argue that you are testers first are categorically correct. Any argument to the contrary is absurd. Has planeshift been around long enough that players no longer feel it is pre-alpha? Yes. Does this alter the status of this game as pre-alpha? Not in the least.

many of the people most offended by the manner in which one enters the winch are also some of my favorite people in the community. Does this mean i relent? No. this has been one of the better tests put forth to date. have there been problems with it? Yes. I assure you that watching what occured when this region was put forth was of high value to every developer. Do we like what we see on the forums? Not very often.

We have been called lazy etc etc. Hard to cope with? At times yes. enough to make any of us want to quit? Not by a longshot. I have incredibly high hopes for this community and my hopes for its long-term solvency. I do not want to have to wear "hater blockers" to pay attention to the forums. I think the devs becomming disenfrachised with player feedback would be a grevious error on our part.

many players have not made it easy to continue to care what goes on here. I would like to appeal to those of you with rational faculties one last time. Please do not make visiting this forum a painful thing that detracts from our efforts. Help us, but cut the evil out of the argument. if you call a person working for nothing Lazy you undermine all of the sincere hard work that goes into making the player interactivity worthwhile for us.

Often devs see less than ideal participation in the process of improving this game for the players. You can all do better than this.

I have had serious concerns since the entrance criteria for the winch was established, whatever rules we set have a function. It is not random or arbitrary to anyone involved in development. we care pecisely enough to be invested in how every player is doing. try not to take stances which discourage effort on our part. We are not customer service reps here to absorb negative comments, we are talented people dedicated to making this project a success.

govern yourselves accordingly.

May laanx frighten the shadow from your paths.

Xillix

[drah]

The questing system has some mechanical flaws. -- Tomt, why do you make assumptions about people who are curious about (and eager to access) the Winch and compare them to "powerlevellers" right before saying they should "find another game"??

I appreciate you wanting to "cut through the noise" as Xillix puts it... but doesn't that seem a little harsh?

Also, I asked a question to try to get to the crux of these mechanical flaws and to eliminate a potential problem for questers... can any of the devs answer that question?

[neko kyouran]

Hi all,

If you don't mind I'd to throw out a speech here.  K, thanx.

I understand that quite a few of you are a bit frustrated with the whole questing thing and with the troubles getting into the new area and whatnot and so on and so forth.  And on the other side of the fence, the devs get frustrated at the players when it seems that all they ever see when they come round these parts are negative nonconstructive remarks.

So we're all frustrated, and we say things out of frustration, that really could be worded better.

Now, this thread for the most part has been quite constructive, very much more so than many of the previous threads around here lately, and I applaud you all for being able to keep it that way.

So cookies and hugs for everyone.  Lets try our best to keep it that way ok?

Now then, I'd like to remind people of a few things.  There is a difference between the devs that write our wonderful quests, and the devs that write the code for the quest system.  So while the we have a well thought out, marvelous quest, because the current quest system is a bit limited, it isn't as good as it certainly can be, and therefore the devs that write all these fun, great quests have to work with what they are given, so the quest that comes os limited to the system it is built upon.  They know that things could be better, but have to wait on the devs that actually do the coding of the quest system for that to improve, before the quest dialog can improve.   But the dev team is working on these things, and it is improving, it just takes time.

And many good posts have been made for suggestions on how to make the system better, both here in this thread and in threads in the wishlist area, and they have been noted by devs, even if it doesn't seem they have.
~~~~~~~~~~~~

Tom, just because so many people want to get into the new area, doesn't mean they are powerlevers per se.   As a tester, I try to do my part to test every aspect of the game, and that certainly does include brand spanking new areas once they are released.  So it is quite possible that many people are wanting to go into the new area because they want to test things out. 

Another possibility is that the sheer attractiveness of a new area drives so many people there. Same reason why so many flocked to the BD region when it was first rolled out.  Sure, many of the characters may not have been in character by trying to get into the Winch, or when they traveled to the BD, but they do it anyway, as, to the player, these things our new, and people are simply curious about them and want to explore things out.  I don't really see anything wrong with that, do you?  So of course there is going to be a build up of people wanting to get in and explore.  It's new!  It's exciting! it's filled with mystery, and these facts attract people.  This is simply a fact of human nature.

Not to say that some of the actions taken by players we're out of line here.  IC, only characters that have a reason to be there should be going there.  The way to prove this is of course through actions IG that will unlock this area to those characters.

It's why PS is so unique.  It's an open alpha, where anyone can come in and test things and play with things and report bugs and what not, but at the same time, we're encouraging people to treat many aspects as a completed project and to be IC and roleplay while IG as much as they can.

Naturally, things are going to collide and we simply all, devs and players alike have to work together for a solution.

The way I see and understand things, the winch connects levels right?  So if had a character that liked to explore, I'd want to be able to access the ways to reach other levels right?  But my character isn't a merchant.  But I still would like access to the area.  What should I do? hmm, well if I were any type of businessman, and I knew that people wanted to get into an area, I'm certainly not going to bar them from it if there is a profit to be made and the right security was put in place to prevent people from doing things they shouldn't be doing.  So what so I do?  I'm going to charge them an entrance fee to get into my area.

So people don't want to do the quests but still want access to the area?  No problem, charge them a fee to be able to go there.  They can still explore the area and when they have met their fill of the place, they will leave, and the ones that are the merchant type characters who really need to access the area over and over and over again, will do the quests and what not to gain permanent access to the area to be able to conduct their merchant business.

And of course the more darker characters can sneak in or what not, but like many things, thats still in planning.

Maybe you (devs) have already thought of alternate ways of letting players in and what not, I don't know.  I'm simply throwing out an idea.  Do what you like with it.

The bottom line that everyone needs to remember here, this is a game.  It's supposed to be fun.  So lets try our best to make it fun for everyone, dev and player alike.

And lets try to treat each other with a little common courtesy and a little respect no doubt.

Edit, saw a typo I had missed last night. 

[Under the moon]

I would like to thank Tomt for his post, as it sums up exactly why I do not do the quests (besides the flawed NLP). It is not that I find them hard, nor boring. It is the same reason I did not go to the Bronze Door area for a month after it was created, and will not go to the Winch as well. None of my characters have any intrest in going there. It is as simple as that. None of them are interested in the rewards of the quests, or stepping out of their normal actions to help someone in a way they generally wouldn't. How many people do you know that would actualy run around asking random folks on the street if they need some help?

The great majoriety of players attemt to max out in everything they can, despite the fact that they do not play to those skills. This is not quite powerleveling, but more of a "I want to try everything" aspect. So yes, in a way, doing all the quests depsite your character type is a form of powerleveling, just as leaning skills your character should have no intrest in is also a form of powerleveling.

Restricting access to many of the game's features, including certiain skills, items, and areas, is not only good, but nessisary to the wellfare of the entire world. Note that I said world, not game nor players. In a MMO-anything, the individual is not as important as the greater whole. If there are no limits in place, then players will do anything and everything they want. That is complete chaos.

Now, for those people that do wish to test out some features, as I kinow we all do, but find that it would be out of character fo them, I suggest a free pass of some sort. The free pass gives you access to one -and only one- feature, higher level skilll, or restricted area for a certain time limit, then expires. You no longer have access to that feature through the free pass system. Anything you created or did in the time of the free pass expires as well. However, you are given a new free pass to try something else new, and so on. This allows people to try new things without a great deal of time invested, yet restrics it in a way that is fair to those who do put a lot of work into the proccess. Ballance is achieved. Another plus is that you can try something, then decide if you like it, rather than spending endless hours doing something, only to find out the end product is just not you cup of tea.

[bilbous]

Hear Hear heed the word from the Bird...He ain't Puffin nuffin funny! I too am eager to explore the new area and somewhat disappointed that I can't right away but I'm still looking for my way over the wall, if only I could practice my climbing skill or find a rope.
                \
    O          |
    O          |
                 /


Not sure how well the free pass system might work, sounds like unneeded coding or more work for GM's or both, interesting idea though.

[Garon]

You know, I was just thinking:  most of the suggestions here are about a finalized system, a finished product.

In the meantime, I think it would be beneficial (and I don't think this would count as spoilers*) for someone who understands all the code behind quests to write a guide on the syntax used when questing, at least as a sort of middle point, so that a complete rewrite of the quest system isn't necessary for at least a little while longer.  Basically, the main problem I have with quests is that I don't know the syntax of how I should get something across to the npc;  if basic syntaxes could be given for getting basic ideas across (fictional example:  "If you need an item from an npc, use the syntax of:  'hand over *item*', in the example of I need a sword, so I use 'hand over sword'").  This would lower the learning curve of communicating with npcs and definitely make the npc communication part of quests much easier (although it's not great for a final solution).

*I don't think this counts as spoilers as the whole "guessing game" system isn't very realistic at all:  when I communicate with someone, I don't have to say something 100 different ways before I get it across to them that I want some tea, I might need to say it once or twice, but not over 7 times if it's a native English speaker and I'm not trying to confuse them with big words.  This is in direct opposition with providing quest solutions, which breaks the reality and makes the game less fun (and is therefore why they are considered spoilers).

[Krann Omins]

I think i'll take that bit of advice. I wouldn't call myself an 'uber-leveler', but clearly, like other people who can't enter the winch I really should look for a new game.
BYE

[lordraleigh]

I said it was wrong to restrict an area based on talking to dumb AI? NPCs, but I guess the devs have the word on this and the old "suck it up you're a tester" phrase will come again directed for me. So let's wait for more people to quit.

In my opinion, it is better to develop a feature decently(quests) before implementing new features that depend on it.

In other words: Improving the NPC system should be priorized over adding new areas or features relying on it.

http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=27600.msg314532#msg314532

http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=27600.msg314598#msg314598

[Karyuu]

I am astounded. Is no one reading posts by Xillix? A lot of you here sure are little thorns, aren't you

[lordraleigh]

I am astounded. Is no one reading posts by Xillix? A lot of you here sure are little thorns, aren't you

I readed them, and my main character would never go there IC for obvious reasons(Must "help the government to gain access" and isn't a merchant). But what's the point of implementing new features to only give some people headaches in "phrases guessing" games? And to encourage mass-questing as well alongside the usual non-RP features involved?

I wouldn't build a car with sketches of prototypical engines and parts.
Neither I would make a raft with woods that weren't fully lumbered yet.
Or make a machine that depends on a broken gear.

[Karyuu]

Pish posh, you act as though everything aside from quests is in perfect condition Every system needs work, and many systems may need complete rewrites. We don't work on one feature to get it up to 100% of where it needs to be and then move onto the next. We do things in bits and pieces. It's a pain for players sometimes, but that's development for you. In the future, combat may be nothing like it is now. Crafting may be nothing like it is now. And so the NPC interaction.

So don't be a downer. You've said what you wanted to say - what more are you trying to do? Give it a rest, dude.

[Garon]

Crafting may be nothing like it is now.

I particularly like the crafting system, actually, and if it was changed I wouldn't want it to lose many of it's main features, such as the guesswork and having something in mind, and the use of furnaces as container items.  All are quite well liked by me   Of course, I can be assured that any major rewrite it has will only make it better then it already is, I'm sure.  If there's a change I don't like, be sure that I will vocalize afterwards and not beforehand.

But, more on topic:

I am astounded. Is no one reading posts by Xillix? A lot of you here sure are little thorns, aren't you

Yes, which is why I haven't posted a lot of the things that I think about the current npc system's limitations and how frustrating it is (if you want me to vent on it, then I will), partly because I've tried to write a native English parser and failed miserably (and it was supposed to follow the simple logic of the stereotypical counselor--repeating short phrases of the statements as questions to get the person to elaborate, and asking "what do you mean by", "what makes you so *feeling* about *thing*" or "and how does that make you feel?".  It never reached a state where it could do more then parse the letters and then tokenize the words   Of course, it was in scheme (much like lisp), but that's beside the point).  I'm sure that the current system will improve with time, but in the meantime it can be kind of frustrating   (which is why I suggested a sort of middle solution, instead of an end point)

[Nikodemus]

To step away from the stressing part (wow, to say bye, because of dump NPCs.. heh)...
I think the gate should be kept open. And percival should stay there and watch who is entering it. I man, do they open it everytime someone want to enter? there teens of houses, I doubt these people stay only in that hydlaa district. There are also merchants merchants who come and go. The winch is afterall metchants property, no?
The gate should be just open at day and Percival wouldn't let anyone who cant go in. Later if guards could go after, you you would have few choices, like sneaking attempt or wih force (what can't end good )
Maybe you could enter the winch after paying few octas? Everytime if you don't have permission. I would expect goverment to be happy of such solution, while giving them profit and stopping random, problem causing people entering the district.
Just some ideas and i wonder if this is considered and isn't in game, because of technical issues.

[bilbous]

Maybe there is an npc nobody has discovered yet who accepts bribes to use his key.... maybe even Harnquist if you dropped the proper name.... hmmmm

[TomT]

IIn other words: Improving the NPC system should be priorized over adding new areas or features relying on it.

As much as we try, it’s just not that simple in a project this size to control the priorities as you suggest.  Different teams are working on different parts of the game at different paces.  When there were only a few quests, the NPC dialog was not that big a deal.  The settings team has embarrassed the engine team by creating a tremendous body of work in such a short time, exposing some problems with NPC dialogs.  We hope to address that weakness soon.

Tom, just because so many people want to get into the new area, doesn't mean they are powerlevers per se.   As a tester, I try to do my part to test every aspect of the game, and that certainly does include brand spanking new areas once they are released.  So it is quite possible that many people are wanting to go into the new area because they want to test things out. 

I know it is not what some of the other devs think but I never liked the idea of players as testers.  Players are not being paid to test the game, just like all the GMs, artists, musicians, wordsmiths, and coders involved on the development side are not being paid.

PS is a game and as a game it should be played for fun; nothing more, nothing less. 

I think the “players as testers” idea comes from two sources.  First, the game is not complete; the combat/spell logic needs improvement, NPC behavior is far from done, and for a fact we do not have any ranged weapons alone proves it is in development.  So since it is not complete, players can not do everything that is normally available in other MMOLRPG.  I think this is a bit of philosophy left over from Molecular Blue version where players could only pick up crystals.  Players were considered testers since there was not much else to do.  The current version is much more of a game and as such can be played a lot more then just tested.  The second point is that we do not have very many people who can test, so we are relying on the player community to test for us if they are so inclined.  Some people like finding problems and we can certainly need all the help we can get.

Not all the Krann Omins in the world will like the game or where it is going but that has to be expected.  Talad has a vision of how the game should be and we are all following that vision.  In the end we hope to create a game that we would all love to play.  It will not have everything or be everything that everybody wants.  Thankfully we do not have a marketing group trying to determine what features will attract the most amount of players willing to pay $19.99 a month.  This game is free and always will be, so there is no player contract implied.  You are only expected not to ruin the experience for other players.  So please just join in and have fun.