Remove duels from the game. (This is not a joke.)

[Robinmagus]

I see this as one group forcing its opinions on another, which isn't right. If a person enjoys PS because he comes home after work and duels to get some stress out, than so be it. If a hard core "rper" enjoys planeshift by sitting at the tavern for two hours and conversing (sp?) then so be it. Don't wanna duel? Don't duel. Wanna RP, go to the tavern. "It [rp] shouldn't be restricted to areas because of duelers" Well, dueling shouldn't be restricted from the tavern and so forth because of RPers. Two groups, different opinions, there isn't ever going to be a solution good for both groups. Yeah, I know, it's an mmoRPG. But whatever.

"weeding" "getting rid of unwanted players"

Call Adolf. We need him now.

[zanzibar]

But these people I'm complaining about aren't keeping to themselves.  They're bothering others and they're hurting the game.

[lordraleigh]

I see this as one group forcing its opinions on another, which isn't right. If a person enjoys PS because he comes home after work and duels to get some stress out, than so be it. If a hard core "rper" enjoys planeshift by sitting at the tavern for two hours and conversing (sp?) then so be it. Don't wanna duel? Don't duel. Wanna RP, go to the tavern. "It [rp] shouldn't be restricted to areas because of duelers" Well, dueling shouldn't be restricted from the tavern and so forth because of RPers. Two groups, different opinions, there isn't ever going to be a solution good for both groups. Yeah, I know, it's an mmoRPG. But whatever.

"weeding" "getting rid of unwanted players"

Call Adolf. We need him now.

Thanks for calling Godwins Law, this debate really needs to end.

If you're really looking for fully a peaceful game without combats, here's my suggestion:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barney's_Hide_and_Seek

It is surely a peaceful and "for all ages" game!

[zanzibar]

It's not about making the game peaceful.  Sheesh.  Reread the first post of the thread if you're so lost.

[Robinmagus]

But these people I'm complaining about aren't keeping to themselves.  They're bothering others and they're hurting the game.

They are hurting the game, which is your opinion. It may not be theirs. Anyway, I do beleive Talad will have the final call, let people enjoy it how they will, or enforce a RP reich (Don't know if that makes sense to anyone else. Probably not.  )

[zanzibar]

But these people I'm complaining about aren't keeping to themselves.  They're bothering others and they're hurting the game.

They are hurting the game, which is your opinion. It may not be theirs. Anyway, I do beleive Talad will have the final call, let people enjoy it how they will, or enforce a RP reich (Don't know if that makes sense to anyone else. Probably not.  )

Talad has the final say on all things PS related.  Does that mean we shouldn't discuss anything to do with the game?

[Under the moon]

I see 'duelers' as non-RPers who fight just to fight. Fighting has it's place in certain roles as I will define as follows.

Brawler: the IC equivilant of a dueler. They get irritated fast, and resort to fists in most -IC- arguments. They should NOT kill. I have met some of these, and they are good RPers.

Gladiator: Fights for a living, but not as often outside the ring. Only kills if it is called for. Some may be brawlers as well. Not very many people play this role, even if it is the olny actual role in the game in a way. Good RP if done right.

Killer: Someone who kills for profit or enjoyment -IC-. This role is more common than I like, and is most often done horribly. Good RP is rare for this type, and more often falls into the OOC dueler class.

Vigilante: the one time RP or a character who does not normally kill. I have seen these types a lot as well, but most of the time they are done well.

There are others as well, and all good if done right. A new system of legal and illegal commands would support all but the ooc dueler/spammer.

@ Bin: So you suggest the only place to RP in this RPG is the tavern, and the rest of the world is free to kill as they please. And your silly remark about Adolf is just plain ignorance.

[Robinmagus]

The tavern was just one example......
You can RP wherever the hell you like...I mean, damnit. Well moon, yeah. I'm done. 


Ignorant 

[zanzibar]

I'll admit that I'm torn on the issue as well.  Just now in game, a bunch of people were shouting near the magic shop.  Some guy picked up someone else's swords (she dropped the swords because she had a sac nested in another sac in order to carry more, and somehow it resulted in her dropping her entire inventory [gee golly, don't cheat and you won't get burned like that!]).  So the guy wasn't being very nice, but she was exploiting a bug, but whatever.  The point is that a crowd of people from the victim's guild had gathered to hound him, shouting at him that he was a theif and a coward.  He was declining their duel spams, which caused them to make even more shouts and insults.

So I left, sold my gold, came back, they were still at it.  Dueled one of them and killed him fair and square (gave him plenty of time to get in position and run at me etc).  Then three more of them challenged me, and I killed them one by one - completely fair and square.  Things went reeeaaaallly quiet after that, except for a few polite tells from Cebot demanding revenge (which is perfectly fine).

I've done this a lot - taking on a number of people and killing them all.  And it's not entirely in character.  Shalmaneser is a psychopath and a serial killer, but in real life I love the bloodshed and I do feel a sense of accomplishment from winning these things.  Yes, I admit that I have fun dueling, and that I'm not a bad dueler when I decide not to just let people kill me.  And I don't have to use potions to win, like what happened with Drahlian (why do people keep talking about that?) - it's just fun to watch people hack away at my character without killing it.  "Why... won't.... you.... DIE!"  So I do enjoy dueling in its various forms.

The problem is that the way things are now, dueling is less fun because of the culture that has formed around it.  It's basically a bunch of whiny brats shouting insults at eachother and talking about street cred.  It's just dumb.  And while some say that it isn't a problem and it's only a small number of players,  the people who say that tend to be a part of the problem, and they don't even realize they're a part of the problem because they don't see the problem that you and I see.


I hope that this clears up my position on this.  I'm not out to ruin anyone's day.  Well, I am, but that's a different discussion.

[Krann Omins]

I'm impressed that after i inferred that your lack of rebuttal implies a lack of grounds for your arguments the only response you had to everything i said was:

@Krann Omins:  Setting my character to auto-decline challenges doesn't solve the problem because the problem players would still be around.

Which tells me 2 things.

1) you admit I'm right about everything else.

2) all this could be resolved by doing the following:
Tell Z, that from now on Z has the gm priveledge of deleting characters, but really set it up so when Z enters the command instructed Z gets a message their char has been deleted, they are invisible to Z & messages from them will no longer be recieved by Z. And if no one lets Z know the truth the only person with a real issue with this will be quelled.
[yes i know many of you have your issues as well but the rest of you seem to understand that until faction/lawenforcement/newmaps are further developped ignoring & auto-decline are sufficient.]




Ps:

The whole point is to get rid of unwanted players.

well if we asked the people who sparked this burning desire of yours by not being pleased about your 'competitive killing', who do you think they'd say are unwanted players that should be gotten rid of, hm?

The problem is that a lot of people ruin the game for others, they scare away potential roleplayers from the game, and they encourage a bad culture to develope.

Youre asking that the game be ruined for many-- in order to get them to stop playing because you dislike it/them... (and an integral part of esatblishing any form of 'culture' is a degree of externally existing cultural diversity, against which to be contrasted, otherwise the culture is without definition/point of refference.--and wait a sec, a bad culture is still a culture right?--then it sort of falls into rp, they are just rping as really annoying people, making the game VERY realistic... Just imagine if every real life person who is annoying, misunderstands the law, goes looking for fights, and shouts at you when you don't want to fight them after "unintentionally" upsetting them--could be removed from society---not very realistic is it?--would it be more realistic to expect a spell of binding to be cast so these people COULDN'T fight at all (even if you want to 'accept their challeges')--and to expect that such a binding spell would get them to leave society of their own volition?)... Can you say "hypocrite"?--when people get too disruptive for everyone's sake GM action can be taken. otherwise I strongly advise the live & let duel idea, ignore them, auto decline them. Unless you are crowning yourself as Herr Zanzibar in charge of who is allowed to play, learn to live with it...

I'm gonna use an example here from real life; Some people from my high school class are total asses. They HAVE killed people, only 2 (that i know of) have been convicted so far (one of those for unrelated drug trafficing charges).--forgot to mention, highschool ended like 8 years ago-- (somewhat ironically) after making my first reply in this thread, on my way to the subway to get to work, i started hearing 2 of my exclassmates shouting my name & rude things that i'll leave unsaid. These guys go looking for fights, and seem to have no qualms about murder unless they might be caught. They essentially were trying to goad me into fighting them... can i wish them out of existence? no. Would i if i could? sure. Honestly i spent about half the time between first reply & this one contemplating hiring a PI to find where these people live so i could carry out my own form of judgement on them. To make the world a better place, much like you are trying to make ps a better game right?--except what you are trying for is cowardly, unrealistic & pompous. I may feel these people have no right to life & be willing to risk sacrificing my life and/or freedom to deny these people peaceable enjoyment of the same.. What you are asking is that everyone be denied peaceable enjoyment of game mechanics & their right to rp as nuissances, (because if the nuissance is ooc entirely a GM should be able to take action for the pre-existing policies such action violates), at no risk to yourself, for reasons you believe yourself an authority of. Reasons that would not affect you at all if you use features like ignore & auto-decline. Real life has no such features, the only option is law or law in your own hands--or live with it. I think a big part of why i take such offence to this is I experience people like the 'characters' that are being reffered to as idiots/nuissances etc in my real life quite often, I sure as hell don't have an ignore or auto-decline button... Admittedly I'd also like to have a way to discourage them from living in my community & without that option I'd choose to wipe them out if it didn't put me in the wrong & at risk... But i wouldn't expect a realistic gaming community to discourage the existence of such characters, just discourage them from living/ being allowed in the classier areas. --oh wait that's already being done in ps, the restricting of areas thing...hmmmmmmmmmmmmm......

Then I guess it's lucky for me that a lot of people see things my way.

Then I guess it's even luckier for those who disagree that you seem to overestimate your opinion & the number that actually agree with it... or maybe you just underestimate what would quantify 'a lot of people'...



PSS:

Ahodogie,Anine,Alecin,Alliva,Arerano,Arunis,Bikrof,Blayze,Cahngui,Cebot,Cilay,
Ecuetas,Epyrion,Frangelica,Gankro,Jangeol,Marqsaynt,Mirey,Motmot,Narure,Nefert,
Poundus,Rell,Restound,Rinha,Rongar,Sallorile,Secagy,Silavur,Sissarliss,Socia,Symasta,
Tanner,Trymm,Tungor,Volund,Xylaal,Zwenze.

I'd say 80-90% of these people enjoy RP... they also enjoy(ed) duels enough to be part of a competition.

Zanzibar, are you saying the game would be better off with ALL of them gone, simply because they like dueling???

I ask this because you've not only mentioned removing dueling... but getting rid of people who like dueling too.

It's not as simple as that.

WOW you REALLY clarified the hell out of that one. Would you consider replies like that "discussing"--or is it more along the lines of "dismissing"?... I know what i'd call it but that kind of language is frowned upon on foums...

and this:

It's not about making the game peaceful.  Sheesh.  Reread the first post of the thread if you're so lost.

GET OVER YOURSELF!-- you say that in like 3-4 of your dismissive replies--no, wait, not in them; AS THE WHOLE REPLY, gawd-- not gonna recheck whether it was the first time in this thread, but you just u sedthat to dimiss a post made by the SECOND person to have replied in this thread-- i THINK the first post was read sufficiently by that person.


closing notes:

Talad has the final say on all things PS related.  Does that mean we shouldn't discuss anything to do with the game?

Well judjing by the reaction in a certain GM oversight thread it seems you can discuss them, for about 4 pages, then 'table' the topic until it becomes a dead thread & is buried & forgotten..

@ Bin: [...] And your silly remark about Adolf is just plain ignorance.

Generally speaking I feel the "comparing someone to hitler" argument is weak & tends to weaken foundations of otherwise intelligent arguments-- however in this case I think bin was dead on; not that Z's post is like wanting to exterminate all followers of laanx, or talad, or black flame, nor that he is in any way to be seen as a bad person or a racist--more that he is a self-apointed dictator and that he wants to eliminate a portion of the population for his own reasons & in order to do so is suggesting changes in policy/mechanics to exclude a feature/option... Hitler didn't kill jews for practicing their religion, he killed them to get rid of them. he didn't care if they foresook their religion or tried to keep it hidden, so he could ignore it & auto-decline their bagels & schmear-- it was intollerable to him that they still existed & just by existing brought this 'bad culture'... hope that's understood to be a slightly less ignorant comment than may have previously been thought.

or enforce a RP reich (Don't know if that makes sense to anyone else. Probably not.  )

I understand that, Just call me Krann Frank, I'll be hiding in an attic till things change.

[zanzibar]

Krann Omins, competitive killing is not against the rules.  Going OOC, on the other hand, is.

It's a game.  Not real life.  The devs can do what they want with it, it's their sandbox -- and that includes kicking people out.  As far as the rest of your post goes, you don't make any really convincing arguments.  Sorry.  You don't say much at all, to be honest... just seems like a lot of attempts to discredit me and my posts, but my posts speak for themselves so you're a little too late on that one.

King Zanzibar does have a nice ring to it though... me as dictator.... hmm.  World peace?

[dying_inside]

There will always be fools zanzibar. 
Removing a feature from the game wont change that. It will simply attract a new class of prick.

[Eliseth]

zanzibar, I'm not totally against this idea, but I don't think it would REALLY solve the problem, as many have said, there will always be system abusers.

Though I'd like to ask, could you give an example of when duelling ruined your game? Remember, it will only ruin the game if you let it.

^^

[Krann Omins]

Sorry did i say competitive killing was against the rules? no. Did i say that if the issue you have is with people ooc that GMs can take action, as it is against pre-existing policies? why yes, yes i did.... you just disagreed with something i never said, then supported what i said, making clear you should have just gone crying to a gm in the first place rather than making a suggestion that doesn't directly relate to your actual issue; congratulations.

-[-Oh & by the way, it may not directly violate rules to "cometitive kill", but [and i could refference where GMs stated so, if not for certain replies in another thread being deleted] it is considered, categorically, rude. & i seem to remember certain policies reffering to "The freedom of everyone has to be respected as long as it doesn't come in the way of someone else's"-- unless I'm mistaken not being treated rudely could fall under that, especially if you are using your own attack shortcuts when another person is right-clicking to attack... Total bs, talking out my hindquarters & i'd probably eat my hat before agreeing to that argument i just wrote-- BUT at least an argument could be made-- look at that; i just managed to give some credibility to something i didnt say & don't stand behind-- have you supported anything you've said? no? nothing? nothing at all?--in any event that is so many miles away from the points you missed, especially since I never went anywhere near saying that.]

Not to double post, but to reitterate: you don't respond at all to what people say & you certainly don't defend your arguments against the crticisms made to them. all you do is dismiss those who disagree with you.

How about this; put it [even tho nothing ever is] to a vote: All who want dueling eliminated vote for that & zanzi to stay, the rest vote for dueling to stay & zanzi to be permanently ip banned & account deleted. After all .these people's freedom to duel is soooooo disruptive to your enjoyment of the game that if they can't be eliminated you'd rather not play anyway, right? no?-- well then maybe, just maybe: Ignore such people, set auto-decline, and remember; The freedom of everyone has to be respected as long as it doesn't come in the way of someone else's.

[neko kyouran]

The freedom of everyone has to be respected as long as it doesn't come in the way of someone else's

Same thing could be said to his argument.  those who mindless challenge over ooc issues should be removed as they are disrupting other's RP.  last time I checked zanzi was still counted as someone.

I'm neither for nor against dueling.  If i did have to make a decision, which I don't, I'd lead towards it, making many changes to it's structure and nature.  Without the dueling ability, there would be no tournaments afterall.  There goes Progie and all his fun.

There was code put in place to discourage OOC spam dueling, and upon so many declines the server would auto punish them for spamming duel challenges.  Perhaps it's time that was made more strict.  I really can't see the occasional "oops, i didn't mean to push that button, sorry" type of thing happening more than once, maybe twice (users should learn from their mistakes and not repeat them).  So really, past that second decline, they should be getting some sort of punishment.  But that's just me.  Heck, to really get into it, there should be a cancel button next the yes/no thing.  That way, the challengee could push that if it was on accident, else, pushing no would auto deal out punishment to the challenger for being stupid.  Then I really would think we'd see a drop in all these OOC spam challenges, while still not harming those rare "oops, sorry about that" moments.  But that's been talked about before, and should be discussed in that original thread, where ever it lays in the whishlist area.

I do wish people would discuss Moonies idea though, or perhaps when he gets it all layed out, make a formal thread here in the wishlist area going to it in nitty grity detail.  I am intrigued.   An we all know how intrigued kitties act.