New Character Stat: Heroism (Legendary Status)

[bilbous]

Basically I am disagreeing with the premise and trying to suggest ways that it might make it more acceptable to me. I have had the bilbous account  nearly two years now and it has two other characters attached to it that together might have been in game a total of 24 hours, just a guess, but were created in the same month as bilbous. According to your plan -- from what I can tell -- they would qualify for nearly the same level of this stat as bilbous with whom I have logged hundreds of hours. This does not seem to make sense to me.

If the topic is your specific suggestion and nothing else I am against it (the suggestion) and it does not leave a lot of room for discussion. If the topic is how to reward players for sticking with PS and this is your suggestion, there is something to talk about. Since the former seems to be your desire, there is nothing more for me to say.

[Garile]

hmmm I like idea somewhat, but it is indeed strange if you look at it through IC eyes. I mean roleplay wise you're character has been around before you start playing it normally and we don't start playing the characters at the same age either. We don't all play characters that do heroic deed and we may even switch characters so often or powerlevel so much that almost noone has heard of them.

I feel you are wrong to say it's the same as inteligence when equiping a weapon. Although you might think it's strange that it would be a requirement you can point at it ICly becuase intelligence exists IC.

Also if you would be able to give it an ICexplanation I feel it would still havve to be more then just the time played. Perhaps you need to have done a quests aswell to gain heropoints and you can only gain one point per week you have played or something similar to that or have a week only count if you have a high enough avarage actually being in the game. Those don't sound to good solutions really but feel it should be more then just the character creationdate.

[zanzibar]

Basically I am disagreeing with the premise and trying to suggest ways that it might make it more acceptable to me. I have had the bilbous account  nearly two years now and it has two other characters attached to it that together might have been in game a total of 24 hours, just a guess, but were created in the same month as bilbous. According to your plan -- from what I can tell -- they would qualify for nearly the same level of this stat as bilbous with whom I have logged hundreds of hours. This does not seem to make sense to me.

I've answered this concern several times in this thread.  Such "inactive" characters, since they haven't been active in game, will not benefit as much from the stat since they won't have done what is necessary to obtain hero requirements.  Since they haven't spent time levelling, their levels will be less than average.  In essense, it doesn't make much of a difference.  Where it does make a difference, you can invent some sort of backstory to justify it.  And if you're completely unable to justify it, then just accept the tradeoff as well worth it.


@Garile:  I mean no disrespect, but I've explained how it's IC several times already in this thread.  Please read through the thread to find the answer to your concern.  As far as getting a bonus from doing quests, I've already explained how that would lead to powerlevelling and why that would be extremely undesireable for this stat.

[Garile]

I'm sorry Zanzibar but that is no answer and you know it. Your answer is that you feel it would do more good then bad. That doesn't make it IC.

Also the idea of heroes and legends could be IC but I'm not talking about the idea it should represent but the mechanic you are chosing to represent this ingame and I haven't seen any explanation how that would be realistic. The measure of how long someone has been playing the character is an OOC measure plain and simple. A measure that has been pointed out is even OOC questionable about it's effectiveness to represent heroism.

[zanzibar]

I'm sorry Zanzibar but that is no answer and you know it.

If I knew it, then I wouldn't be saying otherwise.

Your answer is that you feel it would do more good then bad. That doesn't make it IC.

That was not my answer.

It has to do with flavour, ingame history, the idea of lore, and it's a reflection of how long your character has been around and how much opportunity your character has had to make a difference.  These things are all IC.

Also the idea of heroes and legends could be IC but I'm not talking about the idea it should represent but the mechanic you are chosing to represent this ingame and I haven't seen any explanation how that would be realistic. The measure of how long someone has been playing the character is an OOC measure plain and simple. A measure that has been pointed out is even OOC questionable about it's effectiveness to represent heroism.

It wouldn't be realistic.  It would be something of a more mystical nature.

[Garile]

It wouldn't be realistic.  It would be something of a more mystical nature.

Well glad we agree atleast that it wouldn't be realistic to implement such a skill. Guess I only have to remind you then that the goal of PS is to make a realistic world.

It has to do with flavour, ingame history, the idea of lore, and it's a reflection of how long your character has been around and how much opportunity your character has had to make a difference.  These things are all IC.

Looking past the fact that your selfquote is not an answer, I already said heroism as a concept might be IC but that the mechanic is not.

Look at it from a characters point of view.
Char A talks with Char B and sees Char C walking around with a heroshield.
Char A: Do you know that guy?
Char B: Uhm believe I saw him begging for money two year s ago but haven't seen him since.
Char A: So why can he wear that heroic shield then and I can not while I was the main savior of the three rogue invasion of Oja?
Char B shrugs not knowing what to say

With a quest you could say it is IC or with a GMevent you could say this becuase someone did something IC to earn it. You want to use an OOC measure what can't be explained IC and only OOC and so your plan is OOC. There is nothing mystic about that.

[zanzibar]

Well glad we agree atleast that it wouldn't be realistic to implement such a skill. Guess I only have to remind you then that the goal of PS is to make a realistic world.

A realistic world full of magic, giant one eyed rats, gods, and rock men.  Not to mention giant flying bat-things and glyphs that channel strange energies.

It has to do with flavour, ingame history, the idea of lore, and it's a reflection of how long your character has been around and how much opportunity your character has had to make a difference.  These things are all IC.

Looking past the fact that your selfquote is not an answer...

You asked a question that I had already answered.  You then pointed at something else I said as the answer, however that was not the text relevant to your concern.  So I quoted the relevant text.

I already said heroism as a concept might be IC but that the mechanic is not.

Look at it from a characters point of view.
Char A talks with Char B and sees Char C walking around with a heroshield.
Char A: Do you know that guy?
Char B: Uhm believe I saw him begging for money two year s ago but haven't seen him since.
Char A: So why can he wear that heroic shield then and I can not while I was the main savior of the three rogue invasion of Oja?
Char B shrugs not knowing what to say

With a quest you could say it is IC or with a GMevent you could say this becuase someone did something IC to earn it. You want to use an OOC measure what can't be explained IC and only OOC and so your plan is OOC. There is nothing mystic about that.

By your logic, all stats are OOC.

[John80sk]

By your logic, all stats are OOC.

Why's that?  I look back fondly on weight training with Trasok

[zanzibar]

I didn't say that I agree with her logic.

[John80sk]

I'm not sure that you cought what I was getting at.  IC my character went to Trasok who gave him some strength training.  What did your char do with this system that has made him stronger?  Been there?  Last time I checked sitting around doing nothing tends to dull the mind and weaken the body.

[Garile]

Your logic is so flawed its not even funny that you are acting like mine is strange.

Ofcourse Strength points are OOC in the points themselves. Can we really be that exact in RL just by looking at someone? No ofcourse not. The point however is that that system is logic becuase there is a cause and effect. You train strength at a trainer --- > you get more points in strength representing you getting stronger ---->  you can carry a heavy sword effectively if you have a certain strength.

Cause and effect makes the gamemechanic realistic. Your system is not becuase the cause is OOC. Playing it for ?? years. It has no IC cause but the effect is IC and no that is not logical. Specially if you couple it to a title like hero, becuase realisticly there should be an IC reason why people are going to call you a hero.

[zanzibar]

Your logic is so flawed its not even funny that you are acting like mine is strange.

Ofcourse Strength points are OOC in the points themselves. Can we really be that exact in RL just by looking at someone? No ofcourse not. The point however is that that system is logic becuase there is a cause and effect. You train strength at a trainer --- > you get more points in strength representing you getting stronger ---->  you can carry a heavy sword effectively if you have a certain strength.

Cause and effect makes the gamemechanic realistic. Your system is not becuase the cause is OOC. Playing it for ?? years. It has no IC cause but the effect is IC and no that is not logical. Specially if you couple it to a title like hero, becuase realisticly there should be an IC reason why people are going to call you a hero.

In this case the cause is "the character exists" and the effect is "the character has existed".  So unless having a character is OOC...

[neko kyouran]

OOC wise, the character has been around for a few years.  IC wise, the character has been around for 20+ years (going off the assumption that most characters are RPed as being around age 20 or so.)

You are trying to use an OOC time frame to base an IC reward off of.

In this case the cause is "the character exists" and the effect is "the character has existed".  So unless having a character is OOC...

In this case, the character exists and has existed, just as every other character has.  Unless you are RPing a newborn.

So everyone is a hero.  So everyone should get the reward.  Of course, I believe that some devs have had the opinion in the past that every character created by a player is considered a hero type player and that the NPCs will be the normal every day folk.  Which explains why player characters leave the DR and NPC mobs do not.   But thats a slightly different subject.

[zanzibar]

OOC wise, the character has been around for a few years.  IC wise, the character has been around for 20+ years (going off the assumption that most characters are RPed as being around age 20 or so.)

You are trying to use an OOC time frame to base an IC reward off of.

It depends on how you look at it.  If you think of the amount of real life time, then that can be interpretted as time the character has had an opportunity to make a ripple in the community or to do things in game.  So if the character has been active, then the bonuses will be noticeable since the character will have higher stats and perhaps access to heroic items.  That character will be differentiated from characters which have powerlevelled in a shorter period of time.  Characters which are innactive will not notice as much of a benefit from the same bonus.



I've been answering all the questions, so here's a question for you guys:  Let's say that it reaks of OOC.  I don't think it does, but let's say it does.  What other argument is there against it?

[neko kyouran]

How do you propose to base which character "makes a ripple" base solely on a time of how long a certain character has been around?  How do differentiate between two characters that have been around, one that plays a half hour or so every couple of days for 1 year, doing a bit of interacting, leveling some stats and skills as they go, as opposed to another that played 5-6 hours a day for a few weeks, maxed everything and quit, and now returns after being gone for a year? 

Both have the same length of time they have been around.  Both have similar hours played time.  Both have similar stats and skills levels.  Where they are different lies in the impact they made on the community.  The one that simply logs in every so often and keeps coming back will be remembered much more than the one that was around for a few weeks and then suddenly vanished.  One should get the reward for making a mark on IG world, the other not so much.