New Character Stat: Heroism (Legendary Status)

[zanzibar]

Those are things that are freely given by the givers, to expect them as a right destroys any meaning they may have.

Right... because NPCs have free will... 

[bilbous]

The point is that to incorporate it into the game system is to make it a right, x hours = y reward. I see this as something far better being done by the game masters on a case by case basis or not done at all. That way it actually has some meaning.

I suppose you could have it so that the NPC's keep track of how many times you interact with them and have that color their reactions to you but, for example, I have lived in Ottawa for more than forty years and the mayor would not know me from Adam, much less give me cookies. You seem to want all NPC's to regard you with awe just for hanging around for a while.

[Under the moon]

You are completely confused, it seems. Yes, the NPCs WILL keep track of who they know and like. It is called the faction system.

x hours = y rewards? You did not read what I wrote, did you? That is just one aspect. Does a player have the right to do more damage if they spend more time training? Yes. Do they have the right to make better swords if they craft longer? Yes. Do they have the right to be more well known if they have been around longer? Yes. Not having this kills any meaning to being around in the game for a long time. It kills the contiuing feel of the PS world. Power to the n00bs.

GMs determining player notability? That is just silly. GMs can not be around all the time, and they can make mistakes. GMs give out rewards for being in events, not for being around longer. Can't you imagine the flack GMs would get for this? It is not only silly, it is insane. Having your character validated by a GM is just plain wrong, and far too much work on the GM's part.

Your example with the mayor makes no sense to me either. Of course an NPC you never deal with is not going to reward you with lavish gifts. Only the ones you know, and have worked with for a long time will give you special rewards. Go back and reread my post. It is all there.

And the "regard in awe" is another pointless statement that has little to do with some of the ideas suggested. The object is to just make you known to NPCs and other players as a long time character, -if you wish-. If you don't want any of the rewards, don't take them, and stop being silly. Awe has nothing to do with it.

I dismiss all of your arguments.

Since you are so down on this wish, bilbous, I want you to suggest what -you- think would be a good idea.

[bilbous]

I made my suggestion in this thread. This idea sounds like nothing more than pure unadulterated greed to me. Certainly your refinement makes it less obvious but if we start down this road the developers may as well start giving in game rewards for people who donate their cash. What you are suggesting, it appears to me, is that you (generically speaking) as someone from atomic blue -- or whatever it was -- should be able to start off after the next total wipe with a decided advantage over anyone newer. I say this because you want to reward the player and not just the character. That is perfectly fine as long as you just want to play with yourselves but it won't help attract new people to the game. Just because someone has been around for a long time does not mean they have done anything other than tie up resources (still speaking in general terms with no specificity in mind.)

As I said before that is fine if you can get the developers to go along with it but I think it is a lost cause from the get go. Heck I won't refuse whatever meager rewards I can get for having had an account for a couple years.

As for your dismissals, they mean nothing to me, they are just so much hot air. If you are only here for whatever rewards you can get and not because you enjoy being here then I don't know what more to say. I am sure to think of something.

[lordraleigh]

I would like to see the opinion of a "newbie" in this thread.

Most opinions here are biased to just one side, as most of those who posted until now are oldbies and this proposal is nothing but the idea of creating a "noble class" of old players based purely on time. IC this would mean unfair and unreal differences between an old character and a new one regardless of which one struggles more to become a true hero. Again this is nothing but elitism. Or as I prefer to say : "1337ness".

Also this would divide fully the "community" between the oldbies and newbies instead of uniting it.

[zanzibar]

The point is that to incorporate it into the game system is to make it a right, x hours = y reward. I see this as something far better being done by the game masters on a case by case basis or not done at all. That way it actually has some meaning.

Whereas I think it needs to be automated and systemic or else it would place too much of a workload on the GMs, it would open the doors to favouritism, and many people would complain about being overlooked.

I would like to see the opinion of a "newbie" in this thread.

Why?

[lordraleigh]

I would like to see the opinion of a "newbie" in this thread.

Why?

Because this proposal is completely biased on the side of the oldbies. If a "newbie"(experience RPer, new to PS) comes here to post the bias of the other side in this matter, it will balance things a bit. For now I will reply as if I just came from Planeshift.

As I said, asides from being unrealistic, this will create a "noble class" and divide fully the community between new and old players.

-----

* lordraleigh enters Planeshift for the first time, and notices some characters that rarely are "online" but still have many privileges

Cool game! What? Why does that character has that shiny armor while we have these crappy stuff?

....

Bah this is stupid and unfair! I'm leaving for another game!

[Under the moon]

Already read that thread, and agree that NPCs might drop your name, or give you a hollar-out. But that has nothing to do with long term players. An NPC should only know you in this way if you talk to them a lot. A new player could sit and talk to an NPC for a week straight, and the NPC would realistically drop his name. "<name> is a great guy. He stops by and chats all the time." or " <name> will not stop coming around and bothering me."  Or, you could be in the game for ten years, and never talk to any NPC. "Tell me about <name>"  NPC: "I have no idea what <name> is."


If you have been playing for those ten years, an NPC will know who you are, even if they do not know your name. It is not a big stretch to think they might wave you over to their shop and offer you some goods. As I said, just -existing- where the NPCs can see you will make them treat you in a different way after a long time. Why? Because NPCs are supposed to be people, and that is how people act.

I say this because you want to reward the player and not just the character. That is perfectly fine as long as you just want to play with yourselves but it won't help attract new people to the game.

What? I think you are missing the bigger picture. An acount is not rewarded. Only characters are. If you player for 100 years, and created a character today, you get no rewards. New players do not automaticly get level 80 characters when they start the game. Does that turn new players away? Perhaps some, but such is life. Is giving older characters rewards going to drive away new players? Perhaps, but it will make the ones who are here want to stay a little longer. People like time achievement, and they like rewards for that time. Who cares if it drives away the l33T 'I wanna be the best their is, and have all the best loot in under a week' crowd. Is that who you really want to cater to?

Finally, the poularity contest...well, everyone hates the beauty queen. I would not want to become a known character this way in the game, and think it is a horrid idea.

Hot air can burn was well as fire.

[zanzibar]

Because this proposal is completely biased on the side of the oldbies. If a "newbie"(experience RPer, new to PS) comes here to post the bias of the other side in this matter, it will balance things a bit. For now I will reply as if I just came from Planeshift.

I think most experienced RPers would think the idea is good.  Most other games already have something like this.

As I said, asides from being unrealistic, this will create a "noble class" and divide fully the community between new and old players.

Well, a "noble class" is realistic for a medieval world.  As far as dividing the community... I think that's bullcrap.  It won't divide the community any more than it's already divided.  If anything, it will help bring the community together because some of the more obnoxious new players might shut up once they realize they don't own the game.

-----

* lordraleigh enters Planeshift for the first time, and notices some characters that rarely are "online" but still have many privileges

Cool game! What? Why does that character has that shiny armor while we have these crappy stuff?

....

Bah this is stupid and unfair! I'm leaving for another game!

Good!  If that's your reaction, you must suck as a human being roleplayer!!

[lordraleigh]

If you have been playing for those ten years, an NPC will know who you are, even if they do not know your name.

I have an alt character I play once in a month, or even less, will he be well known while a character that struggles to become a real hero and famous one will be nothing because he was "created" earlier?

It is not a big stretch to think they might wave you over to their shop and offer you some goods. As I said, just -existing- where the NPCs can see you will make them treat you in a different way after a long time. Why? Because NPCs are supposed to be people, and that is how people act.

I lived in a town for five years and the people I didn't know never acted in such way. To be well known a character must be active, not passive , lazy and morose(IC I consider "offline" characters as resting/inside their homes/etc ).

I say this because you want to reward the player and not just the character. That is perfectly fine as long as you just want to play with yourselves but it won't help attract new people to the game.

Bilbous said it all, the goal of this new stat is to create an "elite" of old players, a OOC "royalty" inside PS. Such distinctions only breed disunion, jealously and complaints. Also they aren't much different from things like "Premium Accounts" on commercial MMORPGs(Except that here you wouldn't be able to pay monthly for a "title of noblesse".

What? I think you are missing the bigger picture. An acount is not rewarded.

I can create and upload a character, and never play him/her, still this character will have many advantages using such system. The "Big Picture" is the Community, the need of expanding it in both quality and quantity, and this will be harmful to it.

Does that turn new players away? Perhaps some, but such is life. Is giving older characters rewards going to drive away new players? Perhaps, but it will make the ones who are here want to stay a little longer. People like time achievement, and they like rewards for that time.

Planeshift isn't a job, it is a game(although alpha it's still a game). Nobody should be OOCly rewarded for having fun on it.

Who cares if it drives away the l33T 'I wanna be the best their is, and have all the best loot in under a week' crowd. Is that who you really want to cater to?

I don't think I'm a "1337", I would probably go away from seeing such absurd distinctions between the new and old players. There are enough of "upper classes" IRL.

Finally, the poularity contest...well, everyone hates the beauty queen. I would not want to become a known character this way in the game, and think it is a horrid idea.

Simply put, "fame and glory" should be completely based on what the character does in game, and not on how many time it exists. Some old people lived their whole lives in anonymity while younger ones sometimes become famous. This is an OOC measure to please the old players in detriment of the new ones.

Because this proposal is completely biased on the side of the oldbies. If a "newbie"(experience RPer, new to PS) comes here to post the bias of the other side in this matter, it will balance things a bit. For now I will reply as if I just came from Planeshift.

I think most experienced RPers would think the idea is good.  Most other games already have something like this.

Presumptuous to claim such thing, and on these other games it is usually called the "Premium Accounts".

As I said, asides from being unrealistic, this will create a "noble class" and divide fully the community between new and old players.

Well, a "noble class" is realistic for a medieval world.  As far as dividing the community... I think that's bullcrap.  It won't divide the community any more than it's already divided.  If anything, it will help bring the community together because some of the more obnoxious new players might shut up once they realize they don't own the game.

You must struggle to reach the "noble class", not only create an account and a character to play once in a month. And I meant it as a totally OOC "noble class" to please older players in detriment of newer ones. It may encourage arrogance as well, as any form of elitism.

Good!  If that's your reaction, you must suck as a human being roleplayer!!

I don't feed trolls anymore. I just put myself under the point of view of a "noob".

* lordraleigh throws a bucket of water against the flame

[zanzibar]

lordraleigh, by your logic, we should take levelling up out of the game entirely.  The settings themselves say that characters start off as nobodies and then with time become heros.  Your way of doing things is OOC, not ours.

on these other games it is usually called the "Premium Accounts".

I guess you never played any of the elderscrolls series.  In Daggerfall, after doing jobs and quests, people you talk to on the street and in stores begin to know you by name - for better or for worse.  This business about "premium accounts" is without any substance whatsoever, we're talking about something fundamentally different.

[Under the moon]

I have an alt character I play once in a month, or even less, will he be well known while a character that struggles to become a real hero and famous one will be nothing because he was "created" earlier?

Yes and no. It depends on what you did in you time online. Read this again http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=27959.msg321044#msg321044

You seem to only want to reward powerlevelers. Bravo. There is no way to reward the RP 'struggling' to become a 'hero'.

I lived in a town for five years and the people I didn't know never acted in such way. To be well known a character must be active, not passive , lazy and morose(IC I consider "offline" characters as resting/inside their homes/etc ).

Well known? Who said anything about well known? Read this again: http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=27959.msg321044#msg321044
Particually the parts about different rewards for different kinds of players.
And you are comparing your seperatist modern view of mostly independant people and superstores to the small medieval world of PS. It does happen in your town, you just don't notice it as much.

Bilbous said it all, the goal of this new stat is to create an "elite" of old players, a OOC "royalty" inside PS. Such distinctions only breed disunion, jealously and complaints. Also they aren't much different from things like "Premium Accounts" on commercial MMORPGs(Except that here you wouldn't be able to pay monthly for a "title of noblesse".

Plah, foolish talk. I would tell you to read that post of mine again, but I assume you read it a few times over by now. There is nothing noble about it. The way PS is now, only script kiddies who have tons of time to waste on there hands get all the best stuff in the shortest amount of time. They are your 'nobles' of PS, and the time they have gives them the 'premium accounts'. Perhaps we should have people change their names once a month as well, so you can never become known to player or NPC. Make everyone equal. Power to the n00bs.

I can create and upload a character, and never play him/her, still this character will have many advantages using such system. The "Big Picture" is the Community, the need of expanding it in both quality and quantity, and this will be harmful to it.

Oh come on. I am sure you -must- have read that post of mine. What many advantages would you have? Maybe some shiny polish for you tools that does absolutly nothing gamewise? Whup-D-who-ha. The newbies will be crying a river, and leaving in droves. Giving older player incentives to stay around more will enrich the game more than 100 new folks a day. I don't understand your reasoning.

Planeshift isn't a job, it is a game(although alpha it's still a game). Nobody should be OOCly rewarded for having fun on it.

Huh, then I guess we should take quests out, and leveling, as all the rewards I stated were very clearly IC.

I don't think I'm a "1337", I would probably go away from seeing such absurd distinctions between the new and old players. There are enough of "upper classes" IRL.

Are you reading the same thread as me? Do you really think existing characters are going to open their arms to new players just because their is not a visible distinction in the game? You really don't understand how people work, do you? The opposite is true. Old players often shun newer ones beacuse the old players are treated as if they are just as new. Guess what, people have been leaving because of this, and it is not just the new players. have a look at some of the 'I am leaving' threads, and you will see what I mean. You CAN NOT force people to all be the same, and expect them to be happy with it. Communism tried that. I do not see where you are seeing an absurd distinction anywhere. The only thing absurd is how a powerleveler of one week can get better in everything, and have all the best things, then belittle the people that have been around longer because there is no way to tell them from newbies.

Simply put, "fame and glory" should be completely based on what the character does in game, and not on how many time it exists. Some old people lived their whole lives in anonymity while younger ones sometimes become famous. This is an OOC measure to please the old players in detriment of the new ones.

You don't even realize you are agreeing with me, do you? Well, except for that last part. This is starting to get idiotic. All the character rewards would be IN character. You also seem to think that this would be a reward system for only old players. Well, guess what? New players become old players. Everyone gets a chance at doing this. You just have to stick around longer. And, to get the better rewards, you do actually have to do something. Nothing would just be handed out. No fame, no glory. Oh, maybe you wnat everyone to have a mind wipe so they don't remember what characters are older or newer. That would be lovely.

Presumptuous to claim such thing, and on these other games it is usually called the "Premium Accounts".

Again with those words. I do not think they mean what you think they mean. A premium is something you pay to get things others can not. Anybody can get the rewards, just not right away. That is not a premium. That is the carrot on the end of a stick. Let me guess, if you started a guild, every new member would have the highest rank instantly, and have equal rights to do as they pleased. What does time spent loyal to a guild mean anyways? That was sarcasm, if you missed it.

You must struggle to reach the "noble class", not only create an account and a character to play once in a month. And I meant it as a totally OOC "noble class" to please older players in detriment of newer ones. It may encourage arrogance as well, as any form of elitism.

Rewards are only equal to what you do in the game. There is no 'noble' for a person who does not do anything in the game, just a "Thanks for staying". So you are basically saying to older players "Ya, well, screw you guys. You should just have worked harder, and played only the type of character that gets all the best things. No, you are equal to n00bs in our eyes." Lovely notion. I makes me all warm and fuzzy inside.

Just one more question. How many new players do you know that left because they could not get a Ring of the Past? I await your answer.

[bilbous]

The ring of the past was a well kept secret as this thread is the first I have heard of it in almost two years. I presume it was given to players at the time as an incentive to recreate their characters after a complete wipe. Tell me, was it one per account or one per character? Does it let you qualify for training otherwise unavailable due to otherwise unachievable stats?

a "ring of the past" which raises all their character stats by 20

It certainly seems like it would accelerate training because you qualify for this weapon or that skill level sooner, of course if you don't bother to level it doesn't make enough difference to be objectionable. Does it have a maximum level to which it can be effective? If you wear two are they incremental? Is it considered cheating to wear one while dueling? Where can I get one?

I can understand why the developers would want to reward long time adherents, I can even understand why those people should feel like they ought to be rewarded.  To ask for a reward, essentially for being a volunteer, is the height of bad manners and poor taste. To continue to push for it in the face of resistance seems like nothing more than demanding a bribe. The seed has been sown, if you water it too much it will die, no different than if it gets no water at all.

[zanzibar]

The ring of the past was a well kept secret

No it wasn't.  There are a bunch of threads on the forum about it including at least one sticky.

It certainly seems like it would accelerate training

No it doesn't.  It doesn't change the stats, it only acts as a modifier.

To ask for a reward, essentially for being a volunteer, is the height of bad manners and poor taste.

No one asked for it.  It was given to MB players by Talad as thanks.  This wish is similar but different, and I'm not asking it for myself - I think it should be given to everyone who qualifies and I think it should be on a sliding scale.



To those reading this thread for the first time:  Read this.

To the moderators:  This thread needs to be locked with this post as the last post.  The discussion is going nowhere; UTM is being forced to repeat himself while others are repeating themselves while ignoring the responses given to them.  (For example, Emeraldfool said that there were no IC reasons given, despite a bunch of posts dedicated to IC reasons - including a few which were direct replies to his earlier posts.)  Nothing new is being discussed and no one who is engaged in the discussion will change his mind on anything, so let's lock it.

[bilbous]

Would you be so kind as to point out some of those threads, especially the sticky where the ring of the past is discussed? A standard forum search lists three pages with this thread being the only one where the phrase exists. An advanced search lists twenty nine pages that are not worth sifting through. I realize this is off topic, strictly speaking, but I would appreciate you doing so.