Author Topic: Bug Tracker Wars  (Read 4303 times)

Xillix Queen of Fools

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Bug Tracker Wars
« on: April 05, 2007, 09:28:32 pm »
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Quote
Posted by: Gherph
Date: 5:58 PM 03-28-2007
NPC Lori

It's great when a NPC asks you "Do you have other questions for me? and you reply "Np or Yes" and she things your speaking in a different language :)

Posted by: AryHann
Date: 12:39 AM 03-29-2007
Xillix, could you please investigate?

Posted by: Gherph
Date: 8:54 PM 03-29-2007
Bit of a correction on my part.. it was late when I wrote this bug... my apologies.

"It's great when a NPC asks you "Do you have other questions for me? and you reply "No or Yes" and she thinks your speaking in a different language :)"


Posted by: Xillix
Date: 7:33 AM 04-02-2007
This report is utterly useless, be specific Gherph or do not trouble the bug tracker with such static.

Posted by: Nilrem
Date: 9:31 AM 04-02-2007
Do you have other questions for me?

if you reply "yes" or "no"

then Lori doesn't understand you.

That is: doesn't have any answer, and says things like "Could you say it differently?"

At least that's what I understand the reporter, Gherph, is saying.


Posted by: Xillix
Date: 9:49 AM 04-02-2007
what i mean is that this could be in many many different contexts for lori. Anyhow it is fixed be specific in your reports and help me to find the problems.

Posted by: Nilrem
Date: 9:53 AM 04-02-2007
When reporters aren't specific enough in their contributions, it's desireable that those asking for more information lead with the example. :)

Posted by: AryHann
Date: 10:57 PM 04-02-2007
It is also true that many reporters are scared by the "evil ghost of the spoilers", thing that we developers have not yet got confirmation from Talad.

If that is the case, I think it is more important to be verbose and helpful toward the developer than about some rule :-)

On the other hand, we should also be softer with the reporters who try anyway to do their best with their knowledge to help us.

And, polemic and irony are not welcome, so please, both sides stop. Thanks.

Posted by: Lanarel
Date: 8:11 AM 04-03-2007
I guess the vague part of this report is that it is a more general 'problem', that is not easy to solve. To give you an example, I once had quite an inversation with an NPC that annoyed me, by answering his question "Can you word that differently" with the answer "No", which made him say "Can you speak more clearly", etc :)
I do not suggest that Xillix starts to solve that case by case :)

Posted by: Gherph
Date: 11:04 AM 04-03-2007
Maybe I should do your F* job for you Xillix? I am sick of your shit man, read the bug and fix it and stop your bitching.

Thanks Nilrem for posting that, but what i posted justifies that anything you say to Lori - she doesn't understand, Xillix seems to be new.

Posted by: Nilrem
Date: 11:43 AM 04-03-2007
Gherph, I'm not here to defend anyone in particular, I try to say what I see, how I see it.

Your last post is clearly out of place. Calm down.
---------------------
I do not intend to be cursed at or carry on extensive conversations through the bug tracker however I feel this requires a response. I do what I do as a hobby. It is not my job and I am not required as part of my hobby to fix any of bugs in a timeline set by the players. I do not think at any point I did or said anything innappropriate in the least. Nor did I ask for anything that was too much to ask. As for the great spoiler issue that is not mine to work out.

I do not intend to be cursed out in the pursuit of my hobby. What I do is very difficult and very time consuming. The only reward one would expect is the appreciation of the players and the respect of my peers on the dev team. Random attacks of this nature subtract about half of my "Pay." I do not remember griefing anyone or giving anyone a hard time. Many of the problems players face do not rest in the control of the settings team.

If you are too specific in the bug tracker someone may well whine about it, but it will not be me, I will just be better enabled to fix the issue.

Nilrem I do not need interjections in the defense of myself or any player reporting through the bug tracker. We have had a good relationship for sometime so send me a pm on forums if you believe I have gotten "heavy handed." Please if anyone intends to respond do it via irc or the forums.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2007, 06:11:31 am by Vengeance »

Karyuu

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Re: Bug Tracker Wars
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2007, 11:04:46 pm »
Way to go, Gherph ;) You've made a brilliant start in PlaneShift. However, something tells me that if you keep up such brilliance, your exit will be even more marvelous to behold.
Judge: Are you trying to show contempt for this court, Mr Smith?
Smith: No, My Lord. I am attempting to conceal it.

mufler

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Re: Bug Tracker Wars
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2007, 01:03:46 am »
why do people do this, violance never gets anywere in these situations..

Vengeance

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Re: Bug Tracker Wars
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2007, 06:12:29 am »
Welcome to the shit list, Gherph.

lordraleigh

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Re: Bug Tracker Wars
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2007, 08:13:10 am »
If you watch it closely, you can easily see the pattern of the messages, and where it specifically started its slow decay towards a flame.

Quote
I guess the vague part of this report is that it is a more general 'problem', that is not easy to solve.

That was the point where it should have stopped. Simply, it is a generic problem that clearly is not from a specific NPC, but from the NPC system as a whole, there is nothing wrong on the way it was reported as it was pretty clear to me.

If the NPC asks "Do you have other questions for me?" you would expect a reply from saying "Yes" or "no" besides "I am too stupid to understand that"(it means the same thing, just with different words). The quick fix is to simply remove that line of conversation until NPCs get a little more smarter to properly reply to it.

Welcome to the shit list, Gherph.

I would not judge a person from a single line of written word. Who knows if he was just really in a bad mood when he wrote that?

Now, this trend is not much different from the "Edit Wars" in the infamous Wikipedia, but I simply think that a better reply should be done besides "This report is utterly useless". This answer was more than enough lighter oil to set the flame. It is not much different from getting a written report and tearing it into pieces in front of the one who did it.

And it wasn't useless at all, if you see it. Although it is more of a limitation than of a bug. And a pretty annoying one.

And if that is the default reaction when testers report bugs... I'm glad I'm just here for fun!

Way to go, Gherph ;) You've made a brilliant start in PlaneShift. However, something tells me that if you keep up such brilliance, your exit will be even more marvelous to behold.

Now I'm really glad I'm not a dev or tester. There is something called motivation, and such comments put it down the drain for the people who read them.

Sarcasm isn't a good way to solve conflicts. I would refrain from making pre-emptive judgements
« Last Edit: April 08, 2007, 08:17:03 am by lordraleigh »

Karyuu

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Re: Bug Tracker Wars
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2007, 08:43:50 am »
There is something called motivation, and such comments put it down the drain for the people who read them.

I don't understand how you can say that in defense of Gherph - his behavior is unjustifiable. Such comments due to a "bad mood" can get you a temp ban on the forums, and I don't see why anyone would have to deal with this on the BugTracker. There are dozens of useless reports coming in along with the good - sometimes we lack the ability to reply to every single one with a smile and a bucket of limitless patience. And I think that's fine. Considering how much work Xillix puts into PlaneShift daily, he is allowed a sharp comment every now and then.

No one is allowed to treat developers like that, however. There are no excuses.
Judge: Are you trying to show contempt for this court, Mr Smith?
Smith: No, My Lord. I am attempting to conceal it.

Nurahk

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Re: Bug Tracker Wars
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2007, 09:05:21 am »

Way to go, Gherph ;) You've made a brilliant start in PlaneShift. However, something tells me that if you keep up such brilliance, your exit will be even more marvelous to behold.

Now I'm really glad I'm not a dev or tester. There is something called motivation, and such comments put it down the drain for the people who read them.

Sarcasm isn't a good way to solve conflicts. I would refrain from making pre-emptive judgements

Are you serious?

Really?

You remind me of Ann Coulter sometimes, Raleigh.

lordraleigh

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Re: Bug Tracker Wars
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2007, 09:13:46 am »
[Post removed for bickering.]
« Last Edit: April 08, 2007, 04:25:23 pm by Vengeance »

Karyuu

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Re: Bug Tracker Wars
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2007, 09:29:42 am »
I'm not only disappointed by your attitude, I am mildly disgusted :)

Xillix's sharp comment differs quite a lot from Gherph's behavior. Can you not see that with saying "This report is utterly useless," and saying "I'm sick of your shit, stop bitching" to a developer?

Quote
No wonder why it goes slow. "I work hard so I can make sharp comments sometimes. For anyone else who does it, even a single time, Temp BAN!". Honestly, this is one of the worst examples of community relationship I ever saw.

I am not interested in discussing your erroneous opinions to greater length, but you need to step back right now and reread what you are writing, and what you are replying to.
Judge: Are you trying to show contempt for this court, Mr Smith?
Smith: No, My Lord. I am attempting to conceal it.

Xordan

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Re: Bug Tracker Wars
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2007, 09:38:14 am »
Obviously if this was p2p things would work differently. We work for fun, not money. We don't provide a service. Some of us, myself included, are solely working for their own enjoyment and experience, not because they want to provide a great game for players (that's Talad's goal I believe ;)). Of course that's some and not all, but you get the idea.

lordraleigh

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Re: Bug Tracker Wars
« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2007, 09:55:55 am »
[Post removed for bickering.  Btw, if you feel the need to suggest that a thread be locked, there is probably some bickering going on somewhere.  ;-) ]
« Last Edit: April 08, 2007, 04:27:05 pm by Vengeance »

Karyuu

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Re: Bug Tracker Wars
« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2007, 10:05:09 am »
@Karyuu: When you said "He's a dev so he can make some harsh comments now and then", that is what I interpreted from it, no need to push it beyond that.

But that's not what I said, LR. I said "Considering how much work Xillix puts into PlaneShift daily [...]" - Xillix isn't allowed sharp comments because he's a dev, but because he spends more time and effort on this game than I have ever seen anyone do, possibly next to Talad himself. He bends backwards to get things done and is always thinking of the players first. The way he was talked to is incredibly rude.

Us devs can try being super nice 100% of the time, but guess what? After waves and waves of comments such as Gherph's, after countless personal attacks, after hundreds of useless criticisms, we wear down. Don't hold onto a false concept of devs as unbreaking pillars - we're hardworking people, but still people, and with very human feelings. So if sometimes we get tired and our words are sharper than what you'd like to see, don't give us grief. We don't deserve it.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2007, 10:06:40 am by Karyuu »
Judge: Are you trying to show contempt for this court, Mr Smith?
Smith: No, My Lord. I am attempting to conceal it.

Nurahk

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Re: Bug Tracker Wars
« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2007, 10:10:58 am »
Raleigh...

Just be quiet.
You're what I like to call a disturber of the feces.  All you really do is complain.

Wrong, I do more things than complaining, and I don't think the previous posts here of mine are useless. Besides that, this comment about my person is pretty offensive.

Surprise, surprise...You don't think your own posts are useless?  Wow...  I was expecting something else!

And yes, it was meant to be :)


I don't really understand your way of thinking.  "The Devs let me play this so I should be able to whine and complain as much as I want"...I don't see how this works.

No, I think "The Devs do that because they like to do it, but just because we are testers, and not customers as in $ MMO(RP?)Gs, that does not mean we deserve less respect than the one given to those other games customers" on such matter. And if you want to generalize things claiming I just whine, I could generalize things as well about you. But I don't think it's useful and productive.


I can't see why you are so worried about the testers respect.  This isn't a $MMORPG, this is a hobby.  The respect the testers get is the respect they deserve, it's not influenced by the Devs paycheque nor are the testers handled by trained personel.  Added to which, if the testers acted like they do here in a commercial setting, they would be fired.

You're saying that the testers should be respected as if this is a commercial $MMORPG.  Then the testers should also return the favour.  You are asking the Devs to act as if this were commercial while allowing the testers to act how they please.  Why should the Devs be limited while the testers allowed to run amock?

Code: [Select]
Testers = Superior beings?


They react well to constructive critics.  But if somebody starts using curse words, I don't see why they should care about what they say.

Then here is my suggestion(that was already among the lines), treat testers better and don't say "This is utterly useless" but instead instruct them what you need to make it useful. And another good one: keep and solve those things in private so people outside won't get bothered by it. We can't post about GM issues, couldn't this rule be extended to this thread as well?

Xillix was insulted by this man, I see no reason why he shouldn't be punished and made an example of.  It's not the way to act.  And no, you can't post about GM issues, but you can complain about GM's through certain means, many people have done this.  Again, the second the Devs do this to anybody who isn't another Dev and people just on the "Treat testers better" wagon.  How is this fair?

Code: [Select]
Testers = Superior beings?

Added to which, your suggestion is everywhere.  Instruct them, they are called sticky threads, I'm not surprised you missed them.  They leave the instructions, the testers ignore them, why should they treat them better?


Anyways, I'm done paying you attention.  I hope the sensible people of the community follow suit.  You've yet to contribute anything besides negativity, ignorance and a complete lack of ability
to keep ones mouth shut.

I try to improve Roleplay in-game when I can, more generalizations.

Quote
I do hope you leave.  I'm sure many of us do.

@Nurahk, you got this too personal... I won't reply to this obvious flame anyway, except to mention that your assumption is wrong.

As great as roleplay is, the three things I mentioned far outweighs anything you have done.

And I didn't take it personaly.  I'm just tired of people expecting so much from the Devs while laying almost no expectations on the players.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2007, 10:12:31 am by Nurahk »

lordraleigh

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Re: Bug Tracker Wars
« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2007, 10:16:36 am »
[Post removed for bickering.]
« Last Edit: April 08, 2007, 04:24:12 pm by Vengeance »

neko kyouran

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Re: Bug Tracker Wars
« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2007, 11:06:43 am »
lordraleigh, first, I'm not trying to take personal shots at you in this post, but these are just my observations I have made while doing my duties as a forum mod and reading over basically everything that gets posted on these boards.

Generalizing now, whenever I read something you write, it takes the form of one or both of two subjects:  Politics, and how the Devs aren't treating the players right.  I know that isn't what you go on about in every post you make, but it seems the majority of the time, your posts can be grouped into one or both of those categories.

Quite frankly, there are many people who are sick of hearing what seems to be the same message from you over and over again.  So you have to understand that many people wish you would just be silent.

I play this game to get away from real world politics.  Communist, capitalist, fascism, whatever it is, leave it out of the game world.  The settings say the land of PS is ruled a certain way.  And that's good enough for me.  No need to poke and prod at every little tiny detail.  Is it so hard to just accept the government structure the settings dictate there is and just go with that?  If you don't like it, then rather than poke and prod, and pester at every stones throw of the way, annoying people to all ends, perhaps it's time you found a different game to play.  If you don't want to do that, and don't want to accept what the settings dictate, then please don't be surprised when people snap at you. 

About the devs thing.  The majority of people here that aren't devs are treated with respect and their input is valued.   If that weren't the case, this whole forum wouldn't even exist.  They could have simply said, we'll make a game our way, and not care about what anyone else thinks.  But instead this fourm exists and player input is given on these boards and it is read and taken into consideration. 

It's quite simple really, if the player gives the devs the proper respect they deserve, then I have never seen any dev not give this respect back to them.  It's only those select few that come in here and start mouthing off like they own the game or something, that are treated as little spoiled children.

It's simply a fact of, you be nice to me, I'll be nice to you.  Why does the player have to be nice first?  Simple.  The devs have already initiated the "be nice" concept thing by allowing anyone to play their game.  If they wanted to, they could say, "fine, we won't share this with you" and take the game away.  But no, they offer the game to everyone to try out and enjoy.  So when a few people come back and start acting like the devs owe them something, I can completely understand the devs getting a little peeved at their ungratefulness. 

Right now, the majority of your posts is just that, you seem ungrateful to what was freely given to you in your posts, and as such, you aren't going to be treated as well as others.  Now, I don't know if this is what you truly mean when you make posts, but again, this seems to be your general tone, and becuase of that, you aren't exactly in anyone's favor right now.

I believe I tried to explain this concept to Datruth while they were still around in regards to his general tone of his posts as well.  He, unfortunately, didn't want to listen, and well, he is no longer welcome on these boards becuase of his actions.  I do hope you will think about what I have said.