User generated content and PS

[Xillix Queen of Fools]

A healthy discussion might ensue.

One thing I would like to say to begin is that there are already many way the players contribute to the settings of the game.

I will hope to keep this discussion free from hard feelings or "rage against the machine" of the dev team.

Try to present some thoughts here in a constructive manner and avoid sniping one another if possible.

Remember also that is topic is merely theoretical.

[Donari Tyndale]

User generated content? Maybe you could set a minimum period of time a player needs to have been in-game for creating content, something like a year or so.

[neko kyouran]

I'm all for it.  The rat texture contest turned out quite nice.  Took it a little bit to take off, but the end results of that contest seemed to make it worth it no?

[Manar]

I'm not sure what sort of discussion you're looking for, but I wouldn't call it merely theoretical.  It's already ingame.  Sketching.  There's a bug that prevents the feature from actually being used, but still, it's been implemented.  And there's also already a /write command, even if that doesn't work yet.  So user generated content --through ingame tools-- seems a done deal to me.

Which leaves uploading objects, textures or whatevers to the server.  There's obviously concern for OOC or even offensive material, which applies equally to ingame creations, except that it's a lot easier to moderate uploads.  You can either put them in a queue until a GM clears them for ingame use, or you could keep a list of recent uploads, which would be checked whenever a GM feels like it.

I'd say that if you have tools ingame to create content, allowing some form of upload only makes sense.  It gives players access to better tools, which means the quality of the content will go up.

[Donari Tyndale]

Is this discussion about in-game created content or contributed content or both?

[bilbous]

I think the in-game mapping function is a good start and hope it will be extended to allow for written tomes. It might be nice if there was a calligraphy skill available that would open up different fonts as you progress in it, there are a fair number of open source fonts that could be used. Also, if found acceptable, it could be used to produce illuminated texts, such as were made by medieval monks before the press was invented. Is that the kind of suggestion you had in mind?

[Induane]

User generated content and PS. 

FINALLY!!

OMG!

Seriously this is the NUMBER 1 thing I think holds PS back.  There is some sort of unwritten policy that says if you post things publicly then they cannot go ingame.  They can also not go ingame if you are not some sort of dev when you made it.  There have been a SUPER TINY few exceptions to this such as the Elves skin which was originally a mod, and the one time Art contest for rat skins. 

Considering the size of the PS community I have always maintained that there is a huge untapped resource for expanding the game.  The current models for contribution are in my opinion, innovation stifling, and fun draining.  I have some time to donate to the project but not to commit to deadlines, assignments, etc.   I'm sure many feel the same way.  A closed contribution model really really really limits the rate at which PS can grow, and the requirements for contributing as a dev keep many people from applying, or staying long when they do.  Cherppow is great but we could use more contributions on the art side imo.  We're not all superhuman, some of us have lives to attend to from time to time.  That doesn't mean we shouldn't be allowed to contribute. 

I propose someone (probably josephoenix - he rocks ) should put together a part of ps-mc.com or some other site.  On that site should be a list of things needed by the devs.  Give them ratings from beginner to expert, and have an upload option.  People can work on them (they should be allowed a wip thread as well on the PS forums).  When they are happy with their work, they should be able to upload it to the page of the needed item/building/whatever.   An upload package should be in zip format, include 1 or more screenshots, the necessary textures (or a packed blender file) and a statement of agreement with the atomic blue license and some contact information.  Then devs can go to the site, find what they need, and put it to use.  If someones work is chosen an email or message should be sent to them notifying them that their art is to be used.  This will serve as good motivation and recognition of service.  A locked mod run thread could also be opened in the fan art section to showcase each contribution thats selected.  Current 3D devs should have the ability to select art and modify it to their needs without the need for useless bureaucracy of going through extra confirmation with devs who have no time to review things (talad) .

Seriously - the contribution model currently is abysmal, stupid, and poorly constructed imo.  I have no idea what the true motivation for it is, but I am 100% certain in my own mind at least, that there is a large untapped resource here in this community, and not using it is a horrible decision.

Just my 10 cents (adjusted for inflation)

[miadon]

ditto to the above

[bilbous]

I'm above all that

Just a note to add to my suggestion. I think it might be good if the in-game books were more like books, or scrolls, in that you could write in the margins, on the back, anywhere there might be empty space. Doing so would obviously convert the book from a generic one of its type to a singularly instanced type so it might be more trouble than it is worth.

[Nikodemus]

This is where i started to write my post ;P

Is this discussion about in-game created content or contributed content or both?

I believe this is mostly, if not all about what people do, but not trough in-game tools. People are ofted writing stories, describe items, places needed for their RP events, societies, individuals. Everythign what most likely could be in setting, but isn't there, because noone made it. It obviously needs to make sense with the rest of the setting.
We players often don't know the PS setting good enough, and sometimes we think something  is original, but in fact it was already made, but in different form. In which case, i believe there is a chance to incorporate the player idea-into what was made already, if it makes sense.
This is also about art related contributions, mix of code and art (which won't make sense if divaded), areas and alike.

I'm all go for it. If there is new feature, new setting puzzle, and it makes sense, what is the difference in who made it?
I can see that Talad like to hide most of the setting, so that we find it out playing the game, but it is poor reason against player made setting parts. We do realise it very well that only creators of this feature and devs should know something about it. Stopping us from this the game is developing slower and people may leave, because as some point they may find their IC interaction boring, if they can't do what they wish (like they can't build themselves a house, if their character has the money, specially that they as players have all skills they need)
It is enjoyable to play PS, but it is supposed to be RP game, like the pen&paper games we play with friends. There we can really do what we wish, and the GM keep it realistic. We want to play PS in similiar way too, to keep it enjoyable.

I aslo agree that a player should be there with his idea long enough, (like a year?), because this way worth ideas will remain, while these we don't really need, won't.

[LARAGORN]

I can understand Talads thoughts behind the new additions to be for Staff eyes only before implimented in game, but I would like to see a little change in that area. There are some amazingly talented artists around here, and some of their work displayed in these forums will never get a chance to be used in-game because the public has seen it.

This could be the reason you have created this thread Xillix. Are you now going to use fitting creations that have been shared with the public? If so, I think that is a great decission. Recently we have seen some very good original creations in varying areas, that IMHO would add to the PS experiance and need very little if any modifications to be implimented.

Before you became a Dev Xillix, you created some very good work on the Klyro's history that is completly fitting with the settings. I see no reason something like that shouldnt be used, and added to the official PS history. There are other comunity created stories that are fitting aswell and would add to the depth of the settings while answering many questions and filling in a few gaps in the Official story.

I hope this is the direction you had in mind for this thread

EDIT: LOL i started this a while ago and 5 other posts were added before i hit the send   I am leaving it as is .

EDIT#2:  I dont like the 'must be here for a year' idea, if someone has tallent, they have tallent period. Waiting a year to use their creations will simply slow down the whole point of this. If as Bilbous suggested, there is a site created for contributions, everyone interested will have to read the requirments before submitting any work. A pannel of Devs will then select the items that are suitable and add them where applicable.

[Mordaan]

I agree with Induane 100%.  We have had only 1 new character model introduced in the last how many years? (male klyros).  I have to believe that there are some awsome artists out there capable of at least attempting to create something worthy of being accepted as a final model, let alone animations to existing models.  Let's get these out there and encourage potential artists to take a shot.  Of course character models are the big ones...but there is certainly much to do with all the item models and corresponding 2D icons.

I don't know much about graphic art...I can't even draw decent stick figures in Paint  so I have no clue what it takes to get something from scratch to the level it takes to be accepted by Talad.  I know it must be an incredibly painstaking process.  But those that are willing to put in the time should be encouraged to do so.  I'm sure there are plenty of art students who are willing to practice their craft and contribute to PS at the same time.  They get something they can add to their resume, we get more great art ingame...everybody wins!

I don't visit the fan art forum very much but I was thinking to have some sort of starters guide to set artists off in the right direction so they don't waste a lot of time doing things in a way that will never be acceptable.  Then I discovered this post that was already there.  So it seems its already established that the community wants these type of contributions.

There seems to be this "keep it hush-hush so it's a surprise" attitude which I can understand, but I would much rather see this kind of development out in the open so the community can critique it.  I would love to see threads like "Here's my attempt at a Xacha male model, what do you think?"  IMHO the benefits of having more of an open contribution community outweighs the security of keeping things behind closed doors.

One question I have from a "I have no clue since I'm not an artist" point of view is: is Blender the only way to create something that will end up in game?  If so, why?

EDIT: LOL i started this a while ago and 5 other posts were added before i hit the send Tongue  I am leaving it as is .

EDIT: Hehe, I am in the same boat, 3 replies since I started, so sorry if I have echoed what was already there.

[Karyuu]

Mordaan: You can use any 3D application - but Blender and 3ds Max are the only ones with working exporters at the moment.

To those talking about a lack of art contributions, you seem to have missed the Submitting Models thread entirely! Please take a look at it before you continue. I have already received a good amount of artsy content from someone not on the dev team that I will be trying to get into the game. Don't be too hasty to presume that contribution is as closed to you as it may have been when you just arrived here.

I understand that many desire the process to be even more open, with a submission form/message board/website, and that's what this thread is good for. However, in my opinion you already have a means of getting your work accepted.

[Xillix Queen of Fools]

Quality control is another aspect to consider. Induane's post adresses this. I would say the likelyhood of creating a large slushpile of not so good material is fairly high . . .

I have no agenda in posting this Laragorn. This thread is, as i suggested, just a chance for dicussion to occur and should go where the players take it. I will answer what I can here or there.

One thing i would like to raise, that i have raised elsewhere is that egocentric creations are not the most productive or useful to the project at large. I have have people ask me as part of their "Pay" for writing for planeshift that they be able to write their player character into the game. Imo this is not the best attitude.

Would i like it if the Vespers were encoded as the actual faith of Laanx? Sure. It is a bad precedent to set however. Because of this belief the Vespers will stay as they are and advance like any other guild.

Means are provided now and more will be for some user generated material already.

some great thoughts in the air already, what do the rest of you think?

[Earl_Listbard]

art and 3D modeling has never been my strong suit, though for PS to be a truely immersive experiance every hole in its reality should be patched up, such things as described in the thread "A request from the dev team" I would like it if players could make suggestions for offical PS lore, and facts, as I would like to point out many of the best story tellers and legend makers in yliakum are not on the dev team.