Author Topic: User generated content and PS  (Read 5840 times)

Xillix Queen of Fools

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Re: User generated content and PS
« Reply #15 on: April 25, 2007, 06:58:33 pm »
I think earl is trying to provoke me ;)

We are working on it earl why else would i have made the request from settings thread?

As "many of the best story tellers and legend makers in yliakum" can attest I am open to suggestions, given privately.

Even this is an effort at openess an attempt to mine the player community for its thoughts . . .

keep em coming, I am curious
 

Induane

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Re: User generated content and PS
« Reply #16 on: April 25, 2007, 07:00:24 pm »
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I understand that many desire the process to be even more open, with a submission form/message board/website, and that's what this thread is good for. However, in my opinion you already have a means of getting your work accepted.


Thats all well and good ...but:

1.)   It would be nice to have an idea of whats needed so that work isn't duplicated, or done unnecessarily and so that some people who just feel like modeling don't have to invent the wheel.

2.)  Does it allow a WIP thread?  Public critique of artwork can be an excellent way of refining things before final submissions and would help with quality control.

3.)  It doesn't have a good organized method of showing what community members contributed what.  Some of the fun of it would be to see your name listed with a screenshot of your work and a  thank-you.  It makes the work feel appreciated more than it just showing up in game.

4.)  Doesn't address some of the bureaucratic problems, unless there are other people who can approve art now.

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Don't be too hasty to presume that contribution is as closed to you as it may have been when you just arrived here.

I'm not - I realize its gotten slightly better over the last year or so and for that I am glad, but I still feel it could be improved a lot.  The easier it is to contribute the better imo.  An organized effort to include the community, backed by nice web infrastructure and established procedures in a broader scale than is currently done can only help PlaneShift improve.

Another issue I have is access to source art.  I have enough time to go through and do some bump mapping and parallax mapping to parts of PlaneShift but not enough time to be a full time dev.  In its current iteration map improvements are impossible, and contributing things like a house mesh are very difficult even now.  If I make a house, and it has an interior and exterior portion (much like the tavern) I could be using different render loops on the interior and exterior, plus I'd have to know the renderloop of the zone it was going into otherwise I could apply shaders to the wrong step of the renderloop, or worse apply shaders that cannot be used in certain renderloops.  If the method I describe in my previous post were used information regarding location and renderloop could be given so that artists could easily know what features of crystalspace are available to them.  Is this a terrain loop? Great, I can use parallax mapping applied to the ambient step instead of std_lighting, and get some nicer effects.  Can the interior use a shadowed or shadowed2 renderloop?  Great, I can use bump mapping to actually increase performance, but apply it to the diffuse step instead.  I know to keep the number of lights to as few as possible as a performance boost.  Do I have a transparant texture?  Should I apply mixmode alpha to this mesh? What about texture_binary?  Not knowing enough information SERIOUSLY hampers artists efforts.  This is a MAJOR issue, and really holds us back as far as contributing nice things.

Seriously.  The more info the better, yet the policy isn't even "need to know basis" its "you don't need to know much" and thats simply not the case.

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Quality control is another aspect to consider. Induane's post addresses this. I would say the likelihood of creating a large slush pile of not so good material is fairly high

Sure it is, so don't use it, or use only whats good.  A nice mesh with bad textures could still save a lot of dev time. 

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One thing i would like to raise, that i have raised elsewhere is that egocentric creations are not the most productive or useful to the project at large. I have have people ask me as part of their "Pay" for writing for planeshift that they be able to write their player character into the game. Imo this is not the best attitude.

I agree with this for the most part.  Contributions should be community serving, not the other way around.  Doesn't mean that some things aren't worth looking at though.

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Means are provided now and more will be for some user generated material already.

Good steps, but not nearly enough to unleash the full potential of the community.  Am I the only one who believes in the exceptional amount of talent here?  I guess not but sometimes it feels that way.

I guess my overall point is not that it should just be allowed but that community driven contributions should be encouraged, and sought after, and a priority for the team as a means of expanding PS.

« Last Edit: April 25, 2007, 07:22:35 pm by Induane »

Raleigh

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Re: User generated content and PS
« Reply #17 on: April 25, 2007, 07:23:50 pm »
Good steps, but not nearly enough to unleash the full potential of the community.  Am I the only one who believes in the exceptional amount of talent here?  I guess not but sometimes it feels that way.

No, you're definitively not the only one  ;)

Full Cathedral model works fine and fast enough... for commercial projects with hired devs and artists

I think that there should be more space for people to contribute, much more space. If someone isn't inside the
formal dev team, it does not mean this person doesn't have any talent.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2007, 07:28:32 pm by Raleigh »

Earl_Listbard

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Re: User generated content and PS
« Reply #18 on: April 25, 2007, 07:37:28 pm »
I think earl is trying to provoke me ;)

We are working on it earl why else would i have made the request from settings thread?

As "many of the best story tellers and legend makers in yliakum" can attest I am open to suggestions, given privately.

Even this is an effort at openess an attempt to mine the player community for its thoughts . . .

keep em coming, I am curious
 

*EL hides under a rock.*


errm, yes sorreh...

Ralleyon

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Re: User generated content and PS
« Reply #19 on: April 25, 2007, 08:01:33 pm »
I agree with Induane 1000%. More openness is better since it will "unlock" the creativity for many people and provide them with a real incentive to contribute. Too many times have I seen the attitude "This is the only way we can do this and if we do it another way it would hurt the game" and too many ideas have I seen being killed from the start with a similar answer. I'm not saying the reasons provided weren't valid or that they didn't have good points, but I will say that in my opinion it was not the only way. Try this at least and then dismiss these ideas.

I noticed a great deal of modding communities out there revolving around various games and, one of the biggest I met, was for a closed-source game I used to play. And yet it provided the opportunity for anyone to create mods - be they good or poor - and once released, it was the community's choice whether they would be accepted or not. I will admit that the game had specialized editors to help with many of those things, but still - I can't quite shake the feeling that there is so much more that can be done here through a more open model of development.

PS Thanks for the initiative Xillix!
« Last Edit: April 25, 2007, 08:09:10 pm by Ralleyon »
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Xillix Queen of Fools

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Re: User generated content and PS
« Reply #20 on: April 25, 2007, 08:38:34 pm »
The current state of player access to internal artwork or settings documents will not likely change.

Can we expand the conversation to cover also some more content generation that is not at the dev level?
 
Like things the players might like to be able to generate within the game?
« Last Edit: April 25, 2007, 09:10:06 pm by Xillix Queen of Fools »

neko kyouran

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Re: User generated content and PS
« Reply #21 on: April 25, 2007, 09:18:09 pm »
Well, there's the mapping feature that will work eventually.  Hmm, I believe in the wishlist area there were a thread or two on how players would like to b able to make thier own weapons and what not.  Like they have a seperate section to make a type of handle, then a blade part, and other things and then combine em together to make thier own weapon.  And based on what parts were used and what not, that would determine the stats of the weapon.

i think if that was ironed out more in detail that'd mae the crafting quite interesting.

Under the moon

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Re: User generated content and PS
« Reply #22 on: April 26, 2007, 04:27:48 am »
There are three divisions to content donation and contributing.

1) Code- mechanics and new features
  Easy.  The source is open. If you think you can do something better, or in a new way, then go to it. Submissions are welcome if you do a good job at it. But, there is a problem of not really knowing what parts of the code the team would like improved at the time, or what new features they would like to have worked on next.

What would help:
a. An open agenda of some of the existing things Devs would like looked over and cleaned up.
b. A to-do feature list, so that people can see what devs would like to see ‘soon’.

2) Art- items, textures, maps, models, concept art, pictures.
  This is where it gets tricky. The thread Karyuu linked to tells you what is looked for in models and art… but it is very hard to even know where to start without actual examples (model wise) to play with and tweak until you -understand- how acceptable models should work.

What would help:
a. A list of specific to general ‘things’ that are wanted.
b. A community submission ‘filter’. This is to have the community pre-select submitted art to save the Devs from a flood of second rate art. Folks would post their work in some sort of open gallery, and others could give it a rating of whether they would like to see the work in-game or not.
c. More contests such as the rat one, or others such as ‘Improve this model’ or ‘Finish this art’. Some people art good at starting from scratch, while others are good at modding something existing.
d. Examples! Don’t keep such a deathgrip on the character models. Take a few out of the vault, and let people study and/or mod them. You will be pleasantly surprised with what starts coming back.

3) Words- either in book form, or in suggested actual world history or culture.
  This is a scary quagmire. Some parts of the Story can not be released for obvious reasons and fear of cheating or spoiling. But, history and culture are an interwoven web that makes writing about any subject a virtual minefield. One subject bleeds into another. I often find myself at a complete loss when trying to write something to fit in the settings. The small story of a monk of Talad, for example, would touch on the history of magic, religion (and how they relate to each other), life and death, past race interactions, geography, and even the weather, to be brief. Even if those things are never mentioned in the story, they still must be taken into consideration.

What would help:
a. As above, a list of general to specific works that are wanted.
Basic Examples:
*Diaboli marriage traditions- conditions: not like human weddings, some bizarre rituals, reasons for vows/gift exchange or lack of such. Style of writing: First person historical account.
*Dwarven drinking ritual- conditions: establish ‘rank’ of respect among families, once a year ritual. Style of writing: Encyclopedia entry.
*The mythical story of the fisherman- Must contain: talking fish, wife, curse, leaky boat, moral. Style: open.
*Rewrite the Gobble book- More information and suggested behavior.
b. Easier access to some information. The library is basically empty, yet there are books and information that can be found in other places.  Unless rare, banned, or a personal book, all books should be duplicated in the main library. This would aid in writing other books based on them without having to run all around the world.
c. More contests. Subjects could be anything from descriptions of creatures and their habits, to… Harn’s personal account of first getting a job at the smithy.
d. Give the community an NPC, and challenge them to come up with a great personality and dialog database.

As for in-game contributions, that would require new coding for many things. People want to see their actions affect their surroundings. The game is not advanced enough yet for that. One thing I would like to see is an NPC that talks in open chat, responds when you say his/her name, and learns from what you tell them (per community approval, of course). Then, whatever is told to it can be reviewed by certain trusted community members before being committed to its knowledge.

On the weapon/object front, people should be able to make the item have the exact stats they want it to have (per their skill). But, weapons and objects would have to have a greater detailing of stats, such as type, balance, length, thickness, materials/alloys (the last three determine weight), sharpness, hardness (soft to brittle, softer being easy to repair, more brittle for piercing hard hides), and colors (paints or dyes). That way, each and every item created could be unique. Example: A thick (90 on scale of 1/100), single bit axe with a very sharp (100/100 -takes more time to make), yet brittle (80/100) blade and heavy(95/100) haft would cut through just about anything, but be quite heavy, chip easily, and require re-forging to fix. A light ax with a medium(50/100) haft and soft (10/100) blade would be perfect for woodcutting, and  repairs in the field. But, that belongs in the wish list, I suppose. I don’t like the idea of folks designing their own weapon/item objects, though. Too many silly things would come of it. Just give a wide selection of useable weapon designs.

Garon

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Re: User generated content and PS
« Reply #23 on: April 26, 2007, 04:51:03 am »
Quality control is another aspect to consider. Induane's post adresses this. I would say the likelyhood of creating a large slushpile of not so good material is fairly high . . .

True, but if the settings department filters out the less nice ones ("I want goblins and orcs", etc., and the ones that don't really fit the setting), and only pay attention to the really highly developed ideas that fit the setting and Talad's ideas (and, of course, the settings team would have free license to change whatever, which should go without saying, but doesn't always), and then Talad looked over and approved them, it wouldn't change much from now (especially if >1 year of playing, setting dev approval, and at least 1 good idea that fits the setting was required).

Problems:  Number of >1 year people will increase over time as Planeshift gets more players (hopefully more settings devs and the like, though)
Creates more stress, especially initially, on the jobs of settings Devs if they have to think of ideas, review people who've been active for a year and shown interest in contributing

Pizzasgood

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Re: User generated content and PS
« Reply #24 on: April 26, 2007, 04:58:33 am »
Okay, maybe some of these look like wishlist items.  But the question was how could users contribute content in-game, so this list is what I came up with.  I'm not asking for this stuff to be included, just offering ideas.  Many of them aren't remotely feasible at the moment, and may never be.  But I'll post them anyway, because you never know, and they could trigger some thought process leading to something similar that is feasible.


Sketching in the sand would be cool.  Kind of an non-portable impromptu thing needing no supplies.  Of course, I haven't messed with the new sketch/map stuff, so maybe they don't need supplies either and I just don't know it.  But considering I haven't seen a "make map" button, I believe you do need either materials, training, or some NPC interaction.  Drawing in the sand however, wouldn't.  It would just be really simple, temporary, and non portable.  Probably you'd have to actually right-click, view it rather than just look at the ground.


Custom clothing would be interesting.  The level of customization could vary from just dying the whole thing some shade to adding intricate embroidery and custom logos.  Depending on how much detail we could add, worrying about OOC stuff may not even be necessary.  Painting on shields would be cool too.  Then you could have a coat of arms.  Oh, and flags too.


Custom drinks/potions?  I know there are strength potions, though I have no idea how they're made.  I'm assuming it's a rather simple combination of stuff.  But what if many small items had certain properties, so you could just mix random stuff and come up with something?  Like, if you use apple juice, it's an apple-juice drink, and helps your stamina a little.  But then you could add a little bit of potion to it to have it help your hp too.  It's like in real life, where adding ingredients will have subtle effects, possibly both bad and good.  Increases strength but hurts endurance, for example.  Then add something that helps endurance but hurts mana.  And they'd all effect it in varying amounts.  If you've ever played Harvest Moon and tried cooking, you probably know what I mean.  Come to think of it, this could apply to cooking in general, though in that case it would need some pre-defined dishes and your ingredients would tweak it, again much like in Harvest Moon.

The shear number of possibilities would mean the item itself couldn't be classified as "such and such potion", so you'd have to label it yourself.  You could label it whatever you want, like "Toomin's Rat-Shroom Soup", or even mis-label it if you're feeling mischievous.  The color could also vary based on what you add, giving a slight visual clue to the contents but nothing really descriptive.  "Is this tomato beer or blood beer?  Hmmm...."

On a side note, that could lead to a new "profession" within PlaneShift: being a food tester, to make sure nobody's trying to poison your employer.  At the moment, you'd just get sent to the DR if it's deadly, then come back.  But in the future, I hear that it might take much longer to escape the DR, so preventing a rich guy from wasting his time there could be a lucritive process, and it wouldn't have the risk of (permanent) death like it does in real life.


When music comes in, how about composing?  I don't know how it's going to be implemented, but what about a "manual" mode where you can create a tune, and the you could store it on some parchment to be played back in "automatic" mode.  You could distribute it to other people that way.  Maybe make them play it manually from the sheet music before they can do it automatically, but I'd say don't bother and make the accuracy based on their char's musical abilities.  Otherwise untalented players playing a talented character would be in trouble.


A custom stride would be cool, but that's much to complicated to happen anytime soon.  What could happen is a custom speed though.  You set how fast you run and walk and sneak  (and it burns the correct amount of energy too, so you can't just max out without the consequences).  That would add a little more variety to the people wandering around, allowing player/character preferences to contribute to the realism a little.

Along those lines, custom faces would also be nice, though I assume it's been mentioned to death already.


I assume there will be room for stylistic changes when house owning/building comes in.  Building from the ground up, hanging tapestries, that kind of thing.  Again, probably done to death so I won't bother to expand on it.


Another method for user contributions is sculpting.  When houses and land-ownership are implemented, people are going to want statues and stuff to decorate them with, or to put up a memorial or whatever.  So there could be sculpting to create custom statues.  That may be too much to add though, unless you make them "sculpt" it outside the game in Blender, then try to get it approved and in game.  Along with that would go painting, of course, for those who prefer mostly 2d (paintings often have a slight third dimension when seen up close, due to thick paint.  Gives them texture).


I imaging farming will one day be added, thus building fences and fields where you choose.  That's a good way to "get out of" having to do so much map design for some of those long stretches between cities.  Just make it empty plains and rolling hills, then let the farmers fill it up with content for you ;)


This one's probably further off, but active paths.  As in, when people walk by (or pull a cart, when those come in) it harms the grass a little.  If the same path is taken, the ground gets bare.  Otherwise, it heals itself over time.  That would allow paths to create and then drift around as the landscape changes (as in, a new town gets built, so the path eventually bends by it rather than it's old course).  That could also aid in tracking things/people, if they left foot prints for a while.  And blood trails.  Also, maybe the roaming herds of mobs that will one day exist will create or follow paths too.  So if you're wandering the wilderness, you might stumble onto a "cowpath" left by some herd, or if mobs come to a new area, they might take advantage of the existing trail and wander near town (they'd likely stay out due to the activity, but it depends on the mob and the town).


Okay, I'm running out of ideas now, so I'll shut up for a while  :-X
« Last Edit: April 26, 2007, 05:00:11 am by Pizzasgood »
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Ralleyon

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Re: User generated content and PS
« Reply #25 on: April 26, 2007, 08:37:41 am »
The current state of player access to internal artwork or settings documents will not likely change.

Can we expand the conversation to cover also some more content generation that is not at the dev level?
 
Like things the players might like to be able to generate within the game?

Okay then. To put it simple, we would like systems to allow us to create things in game, not necessarily directly. If those systems can be created so that they don't require much dev supervision, all the better!

The part with the artwork and documentation provided is kind of sad  :(, but it's not your decision to make, so no blame put on your shoulders.

As for a specific (and short) wishlist from me, with regard to user generated content, I would like to be able to write books, letters, self journal (not only quest related) in game. The last one could be stored locally like the quest journal now, as for the other two they'd have to be server objects.

Would they need review? There was a heated debate on it not long ago, but I'd say NO. With a proper quest in order to get something done in that area, it would be even harder to abuse. Users can read them and report them to a GM or dev.

I really, really, really wish that development & contributions wouldn't be hampered so much by the fear of abuse.
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And Heaven in a wild flower,
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
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LARAGORN

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Re: User generated content and PS
« Reply #26 on: April 26, 2007, 01:39:48 pm »
To keep contributions from being too non PS in the styles, the Dev team could put together an 'Official Texture package'. With the dream of owning a building one day, artists can create their interior models using accepted textures. This will unite the varrying styles into a PS feel. Since the background of the races vary, there could be different packages based on the materials each would use. The same can be used for exterior models aswell; with the farming and guild houses in mind, packages can be created to reflect the resources availible for construction.


In-Game suggestion:  Mine is not new, but I would like to have a way to advertize. There are a few ways that this could be done;

1- bulliten board, This could be free or pay-to-post, with set posting time length. Posts could be up for a week, and if the poster does not remove it before the deadline, they are fined 50 tria.....

2- Official town cryer, for a fee, the cryer will spread your notice to all in the town. One in each town. for a higher fee your notice can be deliverd to every area, from the Crystal down to the seas below.

3- Community NewsPaper, Articles, adds and the like. A free press or a small fee. This would be a great way to learn about Guild wars, criminals, articles for sale and any events comming up.


All great truthes begin as blasphemies- SHAW
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minetus

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Re: User generated content and PS
« Reply #27 on: April 26, 2007, 02:36:19 pm »
Okay then. To put it simple, we would like systems to allow us to create things in game, not necessarily directly. If those systems can be created so that they don't require much dev supervision, all the better!

well, im all for it  :D

this would also void duplication,
 and if possible create multiuser created content (example: 2 or more players editing same thing [ image/model/text ] )
 a supervision of the content system could be made ingame to keep things under control.

Induane

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Re: User generated content and PS
« Reply #28 on: April 26, 2007, 02:58:07 pm »
Man a whole host of fantastic ideas!  I came in today planning on spending time mucking about with a huge list of cool ingame user contributed features I wanted to see but found most had been posted already, many far more eloquently than I would have done it. 

Quote
Insert Quote
To keep contributions from being too non PS in the styles, the Dev team could put together an 'Official Texture package'. With the dream of owning a building one day, artists can create their interior models using accepted textures. This will unite the varying styles into a PS feel. Since the background of the races vary, there could be different packages based on the materials each would use. The same can be used for exterior models as well; with the farming and guild houses in mind, packages can be created to reflect the resources available for construction.

I've suggested this to devs before... well as packages of "building parts" (similar idea though) but it would appear that they simply don't have the time, motivation, or desire to do so.  The general feeling I get is that they want people building their own houses when the code is ready for them to do it in game, and only then.  I've considered the idea there could be a sort of map area where these out of game designed homes and buildings could be placed in a way, sort of as a test of sorts, merging in with the story wouldn't be bad - there have to be new settlements from time to time, and if we'll be able to build houses later on, towns will spring up anyways so if its in the works the "this town isn't in the settings" argument stops holding water in my opinion.  I have the necessary skills to pull it off and would happily manage it.  Its not going to happen though.

Quote
Insert Quote
The part with the artwork and documentation provided is kind of sad  Sad, but it's not your decision to make, so no blame put on your shoulders.

That was directed at Xillix I believe.  I agree.  Sad, but out of your hands I'd imagine so no hard feelings.  I just get excited anytime I her any kind of post, particularly by a dev, which seems to suggest that the community can be valuable outside the game as well as inside when it comes to art and map contributions.  I keep giving up on contributing, then I get hope, then its crushed, back and forth back and forth. 

I guess its hard to look at a project of the scale of PlaneShift, and look at the opportunities it has and the creativity of the wonderful community that sprung up around it and see the communities ability to contribute in some ways intentionally stamped out and down.  People often say the work isn't good enough in the fan art forums... but ... I've seen work in several places that was far higher in quality than some of the places in PlaneShift - not even competition.  I could point to several threads and posts, of work that isn't just good, its often higher than much of PS.  That argument just doesn't hold water.  I find myself sitting on the outside and looking in at a project surrounded by people with a desire to help and contribute, and watch a wall between those people and official devs.  In some places the walls are getting thinner, in others they are actively being added to.  No need for our help, no need to use the vast resources available - its too hard to let the contribute art.  Its not good enough.  Its too much work for us.  We like it all secret so we can surprise everyone.... heck I'd be surprised if I'd kill one of minetus' rats but I still haven't seen one, nor that weird undead robo rat. 

I guess it just feels to me like community contributions in the form of several types of art are intentionally made difficult and discouraged.  I see people come and leave, people who could have made valuable contributions, which tells me a closed model in this way is negative and harmful to the project.  Its like building a huge house but intentionally shooting some volunteers because they weren't on your volunteer list.

Ahh well, at least I tried.  I'm done though.

Edit:

 P.S.

Quote
well, im all for it  Cheesy

this would also void duplication,
 and if possible create multiuser created content (example: 2 or more players editing same thing [ image/model/text ] )
 a supervision of the content system could be made ingame to keep things under control.

Minetus!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D :D

I'll jump into planeshift-build channel - stop by and see me!
« Last Edit: April 26, 2007, 06:23:39 pm by Induane »

Josellis

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Re: User generated content and PS
« Reply #29 on: April 27, 2007, 10:24:07 am »
wow, this thread has developed a lot since I last saw it yesterday, anyway.

I must say, I totally agree with Induane on the fact that there seems to be only a small circle of people who can really contribute, and this small circle of people won't accept anything else that isn't their own, and to get into that group is even harder. This impairs greatly the possible contributions the public can do.

What I thought would be possible is to have a subforum in fan art for Art Submissions. In this section there would be information on the expectations, requirements, and all the other stuff concerning art. I think it has been mentioned earlier that the DEVs and/or GMs are already overloaded with stuff to do, yes and? GMs try to control things that happen in the game and DEVs work on the project. Neither have in their description "Art Approvers". So why not create a new group of art approvers? They would of course need to be familiar with both art and PS and when they see artwork that has some potential, they can just forward it to the art team.

For the ingame contributions, I am totally for! I am really looking forward for books. Of course, with any text contribution,  "there is the risk of this feature being abused", and yes, there is a risk that pornographic, xenophobic and vulgar content can be put in the books, but people can also say it in theses forums and in the ingame chat. So I believe a simple button such as "Report this book/text" would do the job without being too complicated and invasive.

For the NPCs being able to learn from players, I believe it would be great, but very hard to implement such a system, since it would require a lot of coding (why do you think commercial games do not have intelligent NPCs when they already have 200 hundreds coders working full time?).

For the custom built houses, why not make a set of houses, which the model cannot be modified and then have a set of textures which can be applied onto it? So if somewhere wants a lounge room made of black wood, they just have to apply the texture. I do not think it will be any problem there since I am nearly sure that the textures aren't included with the model, and therefore, one model and have several textural possibilities. Having said this, those different textures should also apply to other things such as custom made objects. Players will then be able to choose a particular pattern on their sword (and maybe even a unique texture only usable by the character).


Ok, well I think that's all for now