Author Topic: Death in PS: Negligibility?  (Read 8497 times)

Karyuu

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Re: Death in PS: Negligibility?
« Reply #45 on: August 10, 2007, 12:01:02 am »
Relax, guys. This thread has become too heated to continue as is. Take your posts down several notches in aggression and talk about the subject instead of each other. The next posts that ignore my warning will be deleted.
Judge: Are you trying to show contempt for this court, Mr Smith?
Smith: No, My Lord. I am attempting to conceal it.

socia

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Re: Death in PS: Negligibility?
« Reply #46 on: August 10, 2007, 12:11:39 am »
 ;D read few posts up and think
see how easy is it to get in flame of style > MY RP IS BETTER THAN YOURS YO NOOB  :o

now think again > Settings devs are creating story which may not fit to everyone even they try hard and than it ends with these flames about how it should/shouldn't. they will never be able to make everyone happy. But if you don't attack their rp but say "I don't like this, couldn't it be this way..." would be much better than what I just tried to point out  :love: ya

Velh Krome

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Re: Death in PS: Negligibility?
« Reply #47 on: August 10, 2007, 12:15:49 am »
I dont have interests in starting wars. Let me try to bring the topic back.

Socia, if your char dies rp-driven, how you handle it?

socia

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Re: Death in PS: Negligibility?
« Reply #48 on: August 10, 2007, 12:23:27 am »
Socia died...
Eliere died too.
What happends? she spends some time in DR (in old times it used to be min few days or weeks) blindly searching for way out and than comes back to life, you can speed it up if there is Dark way mage upstairs able to resurect (@Mardek resurecting Socia as dark way magician giving quests to Miaua and Hassadria to collect basic items required for resurection spell..) and than it gets resurected, it might or might not remember time of death or time in DR... it might flow out in dream...

Socia died permanently as one of good warriors she died on old age and bad health, you know all those cold nights fights in rain or snow, hours in severs heavy wounds ended up with death (unspecified *maybe* ) during sleep on sofa. She still is somewhere in DR or her soul finaly left Yliakum.. noone knows.

Think about it  :sweatdrop:

Under the moon

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Re: Death in PS: Negligibility?
« Reply #49 on: August 10, 2007, 05:26:24 am »
I'll just pass on the spoon tossing, and answer the "How do you handle IC 'normal' death (can come back to life), and permanent death (your character can not come back)?"

Normal death... if it can be called that, I play exactly as you see it in the game. I'll explain a bit later in this post.

My character Grunn plays by these rules, and has died many times, including being killed by an Octarch's guard once. He just rolls his shoulders and shugs it off. The death, that is, not the killing, as a reckoning is coming for that guard.

Permanent death. Otherwise known to me as the way of the Sheeples. If my character dies, they do not come back to life in the DR. They just vanish. And yes, I do this with a character delete. Applaud me Jeraphon, applaud me. I base these actions on this part of the Settings:

Quote
As you can see, it's difficult for a farm worker to collect enough money for good equipment like swords, armor, etc. to venture into the Stone Labyrinths. Nevertheless, some try to save every Tria they can to pass on to their sons so that the son may search for a better life, which often sends them into trouble. This "killing-by-kindness" is one of the reasons that city is never overpopulated.

Which actually completely conflicts with the new books and stories being told. But that is besides the point now.

Truth be told, the explanation for the DR and death has changed several times in the three-ish years that I have been here. Originally, I do not know what the plan was. When I first arrived, it was written straight out that your body DOES NOT go to the DR, only your spirit did. Your body remained behind, protected by an impenetrable shield until your spirit escaped the DR to rejoin it. It was also clearly stated that the chances of a spirit returning were quit rare. As such, the Dr was considered a place of great mystery that few knew about. I found this to be a hack-job of a story and reason, to tell the truth, and did not understand how Talad ever thought he could pull it off in the game. Likely the reason why it was changed once the DR was actually created. Which brings us to the second incarnation I witnessed.

In this version, the body did, in fact vanish. But, there was still great confusion among the players whether the body appeared in the DR, or it was just your spirit, and your body waited -somewhere- for you to exit the DR portal and rejoin it. All documentation on the previous idea for the DR vanished at this point, hence the confusion between new and old players. I actually liked the idea of your spirit being separated from your body, and your lost soul had to try to find it. Failure (by the choice of the player) meant permanent death. I also envisioned that your now dead corpse would appear somewhere in the living world, perhaps at the point you died, and would be disposed of. A very roleplayable situation, and good story to boot. It was still told that very few people returned from the DR to tell about it, and it was still a place of great fear.

This is the version I, and many other players at the time RPed by. Death was not something to be taken trivially. Several of my characters did die, and have been deleted.

Then came the next incarnation. Naturally enough, players started to believe that when your character died, they went to the DR, body, spirit, items and all. Then, they just had to take a jaunt over to the portal to become alive again. It was also said that death was not a big issue, and most people had the ability to come back to life. This also seemed to be the accepted 'new' way of it in the circle of Devs. It was told that people had just recently started coming back to life, so death was still feared. It was also said characters should come back feeling that they had yet some unknown purpose to fulfill. I can say I did not like this turn of events at all, teleporting all items with the body. It just seemed to be rationalizing the current mechanics of the game without a strong story to back it up. The one saving grace was the ‘purpose’ your character was meant to feel.

Finally, what we have been told now. Something, or someone is protecting the citizens of this world, either for a reason, or though pity. You die, you wander a bit, you come back. The DR is a world just as real as the 'live' world, and you come back to life -there-, not upon re-entering the live world through a portal. The portal is just a door back, not a rebirth. Perhaps it could be said you never die at all, but are instantly teleported into a newly recreated body in the DR… With your newly recreated items as well? Or does some hidden intelligence move your items though the planes of existence to place them with you, and dress your new body up like it was a doll? Something just does not add up here.

We are also now told that coming back to life was always common, always known about, and even -played- with in olden days (and still is now), conflicting with -every- version that came before it. This is where much of the disappointment comes from in older players, who were always lead to believe that the DR was to be something different, not just another land prettied up with darker textures and art. Not only that, but the unplayable idea of time flowing differently in the DR was introduced. Listen, folks have a hard time keeping the odd time of PS straight without adding a second flow of time in the DR that can not even be RPed correctly, as the characters move at exactly the same rate, and the passage of time does not really change. Five minutes is five minutes.

These are the Settings that Grunn RPs by. In other words, die, run through the DR as fast as  you can, and basically forget you were ever there. All in all (sorry Xillix, my friend),I see the entire thing as contrived, shallow, and tending to take the easy way out by further rationalizing current game mechanics. Not the writing, as that is very good, but the story and feel behind it. I get the distinct feel of “Death is meaningless. Live with it.” There are many other problems I see with it that can not be easily resolved, such as the legal system and what really does happen to... *sighs* Nevermind. too much to go into, and all problematic.

I am not saying this to insult Xillix or the writers behind the current story. He is a good friend of mine, and knows I am blunt, to the point, very vocal, and somewhat tactless when I dislike something. But, he is still the same guy I remember as a noob causing trouble in the game, trying so hard for folks to accept what he was doing. He also still gets mad when they do not. Party on, Xillix. ;)

How will I RP death now with the 'new' Settings? I don't know. Perhaps I just won't let my character get into situations where they die anymore, and await the next verson of the Death Realm to appear. That, and I will contiue to Haunt it.

Xillix Queen of Fools

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Re: Death in PS: Negligibility?
« Reply #50 on: August 10, 2007, 07:39:03 am »
Every one seems to miss an essential point in my initial post. It is not DONE, nothing is nor will it be any time soon. My frustration with the lack of patience, the demanding tone, and the outright character assassination has reached its end. In me you had someone willing to listen to you and take your feedback to heart that is now lost to you, I will no longer be operating as a face for the ps dev team until further notice.

Expect broad sweeping change, expect players whining about it, and expect that I will no longer be concerned with it for quite some time.

Utm you of all people should know my vision is not so limited. A couple people on these forums really do make ps a hostile place to work for free.

Lets use an analogy of working in a soup kitchen, when the bums start telling you the soup sucks and your service is not valued, saying things like F**K YOU, and further that you are, on a personal level, of questionable character, I might choose to go volunteer for a children's literacy program instead.

For me this has gone past the point of tolerance.

I can be reached via email by anyone who sincerely needs me, and is kind and friendly.


Zan

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Re: Death in PS: Negligibility?
« Reply #51 on: August 10, 2007, 09:00:33 am »
* Zan scratches his head

Ehhh ... what the ... Alright, wait a minute.
* Zan goes to smack everyone up the head who thinks they can do a better job than the Devs

You think you can do better, then quit whining and go apply for the team! :P

Now seriously, I'm not 100% where these 'personal attacks' are coming from but it would be a shame if a few people's strong opinions managed to ruin the positive turn towards opening up, that has been going on in PS lately. I can't be the only one that noticed the entire Dev team making a much bigger effort to get the community involved and also giving feedback on our suggestions. Don't let that goal die because of some hardship, it'll be worth it in the end.

Now lets all take a few deep breaths, calm down and look at this thread ..

It started with a discussion between players. Nobody will disagree that the way the DR is supposed to be working and the way it works now are quite different. So that gives us players a problem ... we have more ways than one of treating the DR. That's what this discussion was about. Not how it should be done, people who want to fix that .. revert to my fourth line :P

Zan Drithor, Member of the Vaalnor Council
Tyrnal Relhorn, Captain of the Vaalguard
Thromdir Shoake, Merchant
Giorn Kleaver, Miner.

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Talad

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Re: Death in PS: Negligibility?
« Reply #52 on: August 10, 2007, 12:11:46 pm »
Few notes on my side:
The thread is a very good read, up to the point you start going too much into the details of "who is right" or "who has more power to request/define something, players or devs". I think in every post we make, we should keep in mind those two arguments and leave those completely out of the discussion.

There is no right or wrong here, but people trying to sort out a very interesting concept of the death realm. Is a fascinating realm with endless possibilities of expansion, so it's very normal each of us has different ideas and views about it.

I appreciate the fact both devs and players are trying to push hard to make this game better, and Seytra wouldn't have written such long reasoning without having a passion for this game, I least this is how I see it, and how it should be.

Now for the good parts of your posts which remained a bit hidden.
Quote
Quote of Xillix:
"I can speak for the dev team in one regard, we do read the forums your thoughts do reach us, but honestly, we probably are just as dissatisfied with certain elements of the game as the players are if not moreso."

That's true, and in many cases we find ourselves rewriting what we created previously. The somewhat hard response of Xillix I think is blended by this quote, where he says at times things are not perfect and will be changed. I think players and devs have all right to suggest what they would like to see, as soon as the discussion is polite, it's a game after all  ;)

Quote
Quote of Seytra:
The engine, sure. The client, definitely, but the settings? FAICT, the settings is free to go ahead without even looking at what the engine can do now. In fact, the settings is the only part of PS that can be done completely without all others, so why does it glue itself to the engine more than any other part? I am obviously missing a major chunk here.
...
but certainly not with "We know it all but we don't tell you, na-ha-ha!".


The fact we cannot disclose everything is for two reasons:
 - things are not defined yet, so also the devs have no idea on a certain question you raise
 - we are not likely to release parts that have not been agreed with more people in the team, so if something is pending review by me, Xillix cannot release it, even if he would like to

This doesn't exclude that some of what we released may change, and the change happens for three main factors:
 - devs find a better idea, and change the content
 - we get a better idea from players
 - we have to align to new content in game, like new areas, new NPCs, new engine capabilities

Given that, surely it's hard to roleplay something that's changing, like for setting is hard to write on something that's changing (or not working properly). At the end we decided to go with the approach to have a playable game, so we bend things at times just to have it playable and meaningful in the current context, but surely those will be changed later.

This is the good and bad of playing a game which is in development, not in beta, 2 months from release, and we have to face it taking the good parts.

Quote
Quote by Seytra
So, naturally, there shouldn't be quests leading to unimplemented places, but there also should be no quests leading to places that one can't be reasonably expected to reach in the "final" version. IOW, the DR itself may contain quests, but those must be confined to the DR itself, and all quests in the WOTL must also be confined to the WOTL. The (rare) quests that do cross these borders must state how the transition is achieved, to not create the impression that it's an everyday thing.

I agree to this point of view, and I'm sure also Xillix agrees, we discussed many times of the death realm internally, and we are on the same line here. The quests you refer to are very old, probably quest number 5 or 6, and surely have to be removed now that we have a bigger DR and more quests.

We agree DR should be separate, it has been designed to be separate, but today we need some connection to it for everyone, so we use the area we have, while tomorrow it will be just for high-level or death-corrupted chars, which will probably create their domains there and pay an heavy toll to move from DR to living realm.

So keep up the good suggestions and hints, we will do our best to listen and implement.  :)

In general I would like people to leave good discussions in the forums, so those can be reused later when we decide to redesign some parts. This can be a very good thread, and can be reused, if it was not for the last part. My suggestion is to be the "moderators" yourself, and ask moderators to remove your posts in agreement with other people when you see the thread has turned bad, so we leave a good reusable asset here.