The Gods Must be Crazy!

[bilbous]

I was going to suggest that in order to be able to glide on their wings Klyros would need to have very lightweight skeletal structure which would make them unsuited to close combat but I doubt you could work that in without a great deal of grief. Carbon nanotubes might be strong enough but I do not know what else.

@Rod that is the typical balance in this game people who fight npc's almost always have more pp's than they can afford to train. People who do not tend to have more money than they can spend on training if they have anything.

[Waylander]

Maybe instead of whining so much, some people should state exactly how this change has effected them and and how they have tried to change their game to compensate.

Is anybody else surprised that it wasn't me who said that?

Either way, he raises a good point.  I do not mean in any way to discourage this thread.  The original poster wanted to have a discussion and I find that admirable and somewhat rare these days.  A discussion about balancing could only help the devs make the game.  I stress discussion because I don't want "This should not be like that!", everybody knows I'd quickly infuriate whoever posted that because... well... that's what I do ;P

Getting back to what I was saying, saladasalad brings up a very good point.  Things are going to change, the gold is now much more rare, the devs thought it should be so.  This isn't a bug this is a decision by the Dev team.  In cases like this you can do nothing more than adapt your play style to the change.

And to be frank, does anybody think that tria is too hard to come by?  The Economy has millions of tria too many at the moment.

I'm sure it will change. 

[Roderyck Slywolfe]

I would be interested to see the actual numbers in terms of total players' expendable income in the game right now, compared to, say a week or month from now. Is that possible? After all, trias spent on training and items purchased from NPC's are no longer part of the economy. It is possible the only change in gameplay, for some, will be more time spent mining. 

Also, a companion of mine raised a good point. People new to the game may receive less help as a result of all this. I already see my tria becoming more valuable, and therefore, less likely to be given away.

[Kerol]

I already see my tria becoming more valuable, and therefore, less likely to be given away.

Something to aim for in an economy that is struck by an obnoxious inflation rate.

As it was said in another thread, one reason for the change was that we are trying to make gold mining more realistic. And that means that a mine may run dry sometime.
Plus we have some value for items and ressources that can be considered reasonable within the settings, from which the current economy is far off.

From the overall viewpoint we're also trying to counterbalance the inflation rate, which can't be done without adjustments of all variables involved.

If you want to have a constructive discussion, I'd suggest to start looking at the bigger picture and give ideas on how to make crafted items more valuable and how much the value of loot would have to be reduced to keep the balance in your opinion. Other ideas on how to manipulate the economy are also welcome.

[Maju]

I'm wondering if they bumped up the silver mining rate and just nobody has noticed because they are fixated on gold. I haven't tried it myself but maybe I will.

Well, finding mines other than the most popular ones is a real challenge. I have no idea where to get other minerals than gold, iron, coal and some crystals. I am not even sure if silver exists, or platinum or zinc or tin or copper... So I'll stick to gold by the moment that anyhow is getting more priced thanks to scarcity. Now buyers even come to the mines and pay as much as in town. I may need more time to get the same gold but I have no serious alternative for income anyhow.

The problem is not that gold is too aboundant but that you cannot get money from nearly anything else unless you are lvl 20 metallurgian/blacksmith (what requires a lot of trias to train in any case). I tried gem cutting but it seems it doesn't work. I tried weapons/armor repair but it's cheaper to buy new ones. Someone tried to sell me a quite fast short sword for "at least 3,000 trias"... but I can buy regular short swords for 200 trias each, so it's no good business. With a single lump of gold ore (at free market price) I can renew completely my weapons... armor doesn't even wear out enough to change it but very now and then.

The real problem in PS economy is the lack of available jobs and the little profit you can get from the ones available in the free market. Price differences between free and official market are just nonsensical. Cost of repair is prohibitive when compared with cost of selling used weapon and buyng new one. Monetary cost of training is just too high not to do almost compulsively the only thing that gives money (unless you already are a skilled craftsman/-woman): dig for gold. If gold is rare, you have litle choices but to spend more time digging for it.

[Jeraphon]

I am not even sure if silver exists, or platinum or zinc or tin or copper...

Yes, not currently, yes, yes, and yes.

[bilbous]

Some weapons are more worthwhile to repair than others. Normal ones are only worth it as practice. A really good looted weapon is worth repairing for some time as is a really good crafted weapon. I have made some money repairing weapons in the past because I am fairly good at it but the more complex ones take too long. Of course I have not yet reached the extent of training possible since the winch trainer was added. The higher your level the faster the repairs go.

The traditional way to make money is still good I think and that is killing stuff and selling its loot. The loot rates have been reduced from what they were in the past, around the time the gold boom occurred. That gold was over-valued, I do not doubt. Making it harder to mine is not a bad thing but perhaps they have reduced it too much but the Ulber mine could be getting played out which also happened to the magic shop mine. Realistically how long can you expect a minefield to be harvested 24/7?

By the way you can make yourself a shortcut listing a bunch of /dig commands one to a line for use in prospecting.
For example:
/dig gold
/dig iron
/dig coal
etc.
then as you walk the realm you can use the shortcut to locate possible mine sites. What happens most of the time is you get a bunch of "you see no good place to dig" messages in the status tab but if you hit paydirt you get a bunch of red error messages on-screen saying "you cannot dig because you are already busy" if you have a pick equipped or a red message saying "you do not have a tool equipped." Either way you know you have found something and then all you need to do is determine what you have found.

[TomT]

Great post Roderyck and one of my favorite movies.  Being without money is usually the most typical challenge players have in other games in my experience.

1. Quests...DEFINITELY quests. What better way to encourage questing? I, personally, have been disappointed with some of the tria awards from quests. I could have just as easily sat in one place and fought a trepor for its organs and made more with MUCH less effort.

2. MOB loot is not proportionate to the PP gained without gold as it was. So, MOB's now need more loot in the form of tria to balance the loss.

3. Other minerals. If there ever was a demand for a coal or iron miner, it would have happened already. With the value of other minerals remaining the same, it remains a useless market.

4. Glyph or magic item crafting. I know this is a stretch developmentally, but to increase the player value of materials such as animal parts , mushrooms, etc., it would be nice to see them used as material components to making such items.

1.   Great idea I hope we will see this change as well.  Some of us came to similar conclusion, so I am hoping we will see something here before soon.
2.   Another good point.  Let’s throw in the small chance of a high priced but otherwise useless item.
3.   Here I disagree.  I think the lucrative gold market prevented coal and iron mining to reach the level to fulfill the demand of blacksmiths.  From what I understand the demand was always there.  We will have to see who is right.
4.   Hmm, I am not aware of any discussions on how glyphs are created.  Certainly we said at some point that every item in game can be crafted.  Send me a PM if you have some ideas on how this can be done.

[Karyuu]

Glyphs are not crafted, but found in nature and "gathered" by powerful mages. This was a question in one of our previous Q&A's:

There's EXTREMELY little explanation of how glyphs are used in an RP sense. What do we do, smack 'em together and hope sparks fly? Also, how much of the magic is dependent on the glyph and how much on the wielder? If it's all the glyph than there's no talent to magic except figuring out which one to use to zap people with.

Glyphs are the base of every spell. They can be found in nature with no real explanation - no one know exactly why they form, but when some type of energy is strongly present in one place, then a glyph can appear. Glyphs can appear as marks on very different materials from a leaf to the fur of an animal, and usually of any type of rock. Powerful wizards knows where and how to extract glyphs from nature, and they usually transfer this power to magical black stones, that are small enough to carry around.

During the centuries many glyphs have been found and studied and so the wizard learn how to recognize those. Wizards discovered that each glyph can create a spell effect and that many glyphs can be combined to obtain greater effects. To simplify casting of spells the glyphs are associated to a concept and wizards combine those concepts to form new spells. When the spell is cast the wizard must have the glyphs at hand, in his backpack or in the pockets of his robe. Glyphs are not consumed during casting. The caster focuses his mind to a particular concept and drags energy from the glyph.

The glyphs are kept normally in a safe and hidden place by the wizard, losing one can be a great loss, the caster will not be able to cast the spells that use that glyph.

There is a strong magic link between the wizard and his glyphs. That requires a process of purification when the wizard gains a new glyph that may take some time (hours or 1 day). After that purification process the link is established and the glyph can be used for casting.

[Roderyck Slywolfe]

3.   Here I disagree.  I think the lucrative gold market prevented coal and iron mining to reach the level to fulfill the demand of blacksmiths.  From what I understand the demand was always there.  We will have to see who is right.

I have been informed that iron ore sells for 2t at Harn's (I may have been misinformed, I'll check tonight), but there's a player that pays 250 each. My perspective on this is from both with and without players around.

We will focus our efforts on the reproduction of a real world with politics, economy and many non-player-characters controlled by the server that will bring our world to life, even without players connected!

If NPC's are placed, so the game can be played without many others online, would it not then be logical to price iron more in line with what players purchase it at? Say 50 or 100? This would make iron mining a more viable option for beginners. A lot of labor goes into just one lump of iron ore.

Also, I've been wanting to know, has ALL mining success rates been reduced or just gold?

*edit*

If you want to have a constructive discussion, I'd suggest to start looking at the bigger picture and give ideas on how to make crafted items more valuable and how much the value of loot would have to be reduced to keep the balance in your opinion. Other ideas on how to manipulate the economy are also welcome.

I think crafted items are valued well. I paid 15K each for two axes (Q171). If you want to manipulate the economy, stimulate the players' economy by giving them an area to sell their goods. Perhaps opening up some buildings and placing different signs on them designating what is sold there, or have an open market setting in Hydlaa and Oja with tents or booths. This way, even common items can be sold by players instead of NPC's to keep the tria flowing.

I can see a time, in the future, when it could be quite profitable to be a merchant, and the haggling will definitely add a nice RP element to buying and selling.

[CrazyYlian]

I have been informed that iron ore sells for 2t at Harn's (I may have been misinformed, I'll check tonight), but there's a player that pays 250 each. My perspective on this is from both with and without players around.

If NPC's are placed, so the game can be played without many others online, would it not then be logical to price iron more in line with what players purchase it at? Say 50 or 100? This would make iron mining a more viable option for beginners. A lot of labor goes into just one lump of iron ore.

Agreed.  The difference between NPC price and player price is extreme.  Not just on ore, but on loot as well.  If the idea is to balance the economy, then it would seem that an item should have at least *some* consistent price point related to its apparent atrributes.  A sword that sells for 1400 to Harnquist could well be worth more to someone who wants that particular weapon, but 60,000 more for a seduction dagger?   That seems to imply that Harnquist is utterly incompetent, or an outright crook.  (And speaking of the economy, since the appearance of seduction weapons, the auction market has almost dried up for any other looted weapons, so you pretty much are forced to accept what the NPCs pay...  its seduction or HQ crafteds, all else is garbage.)

As to the original topic, the lowered mining rates don't bother me that much in and of themselves.  I just know that I need to spend more time at it.  What bothers me is the stated reason for it (balancing the economy) doesn't seem to be applied anywhere except to gold.  Crafting, looting and mining should all be part of that economy.

I really like Roderyck's idea of a player marketplace. 

[Reyna Kaviri]

As to the original topic, the lowered mining rates don't bother me that much in and of themselves.  I just know that I need to spend more time at it.  What bothers me is the stated reason for it (balancing the economy) doesn't seem to be applied anywhere except to gold.  Crafting, looting and mining should all be part of that economy.

I agree. I would appreciate a straight answer for the reason why the gold market (and only the gold market) has been toyed with. It has made it nearly unprofitable to mine gold because iron and coal are more efficient. Is that at all realistic?

Take that home. Chew it, it tastes great.

[Xillix Queen of Fools]

Balance does not happen over night. This alarmist thread is only natural given the powerful and artificial reliance on gold in yliakum. Other factors of balance are being considered every day. Fear not we will try to bring everything together into a more realistic picture in due course. The amount of gold being drawn was incredibly unbalanced.

Gold is more rare than other metals.

http://www.gold.org/discover/knowledge/aboutgold/gold_prod/index.html

Changes to crafting, the base prices, and the incidence of other metals will follow.

When dealing with unstable economics in a pre-alpha game remember this maxim "It doesn't get comfortable."

We certainly have and will continue to tinker with the other base metals. I would concur with the notion that in our game iron should be more valuable than it is today.

[Reyna Kaviri]

Sounds good to me...

Straight answer! Yay Xillix

[Fethrin]

After a couple of days struggling to earn a crust digging gold!
We ought really to mention beginners. This is an imbalanced struggle now, since my pp have reach 4,000 and my trias are once again zero. Where I note a change in my own game behaviour, is that I cannot afford to give new starters a helping hand.
Just a week or so ago, I was able to assist a newbie (who had been struggling in the sewers for 2 days), with a pair of swords and a set of armour. That person was on the brink of throwing the towel in. The sudden jump to be able to acquire pp instead of exp made all the difference.
I found another today, but I couldn't spare the money since it is so hard to come buy.
One experienced player was trying to sell swords, but no-one was buying since they needed all their tria for training.

I agree with Roderyck Slywolfe that this is repercussive and imbalanced.
I suspect that you'll find a higher fallout rate of new players for the reasons I've mentioned, a greater fallout of experienced players since their trades are being hit by having fewer buyers, and an overall discontent as the difficulty level shoots through the roof.

The game already suffers from poor stability, so it demands a certain amount of patience & tolerance to play it.
The developers have compounded their problems in my opinion, and that is a shame, since basically it's a very good game.
I run  company, and I know the knock on effects of even small price changes.
Every merchant, on every rung of the ladder, needs sellers so he can buy and sell on, goods or services.
With less money there are less buyers. It isn't a strategy, it's an economy. And it applies to a structured game like this which emulates life.

In real life, this is called a recession.

I reccomend you revert a little.

*edit*

Xillix uses the expression "alarmist thread".

Actually, it is not alarmist.
The original thread post was well written, unbiased, very logically expressed, and without emotional content, which is not in the least alarmist.
What IS alarmist is that the developers have realised an imbalance, and reacted instead of responding.
To make any sudden economic change is foolhardy as any chancellor knows, but developers wouldn't know this as they are artistically minded rather than financially. Which is a good trait. Without them there would be no game.

What should have happened is what many have pointed out, small changes to other ores & gems first, lowering the interest in gold a little, and at the same time very slightly lowering gold supplies. There would have been a gradual change over, that probably few players would have noticed.
The difficulty for the developers now, is to rectify the situation.
And it does have to be rectified.
This isn't a question of "I wrote the game so I must be right", because what they are doing is making it up as they go along, which is very unprofessional, and puts an even greater burden of tolerance on players.
After all you need these players. Without them there is no game either.