For the love of *insert whatever here* people .....

[Tolol]

I will leave this board. And you'll have to deal with what that will mean. You, not me, who will be somewhere else doing other things and be happier for it. I will stop listening to player complaints. I will stop listening to player opinions. I will stop sharing anything I know with the community. I will continue creating art assets based on our release plans and fixing bugs via the BT, and nothing more. I am on the verge right now and 100% serious about it.

With this thread, I am most certainly through. Thanks to those who have shown their support - you guys are amazing.

Please Karyuu, don't do it ... ask one of the engine devs to write you a small filter for making the forums a good place for you ... but please,
please don't leave those who need your support.

[Under the moon]

* Under the moon drags out a bigger soapbox, puts the insulting people and trolls in it and nails the top down, then drags it off before returning.

Be very glad I am not a moderator. I am not so kind as others when it comes to unfounded insults and petty arguing. I am not going to defend the Devs, as they need none. I am not going to support the players’ ‘side’, as -believe it or not- that is what the Devs are doing.

The game is evolving and changing all the time. If it is not fast enough, tuff. If it is not in the direction you wanted, then you can “make your voice heard”, but do not expect the world to bow down before you, especially if you act disrespectful and demeaning. This is not a birds’ nest, and the loudest criers do not get the worm.

That is not to say Devs don’t make mistakes sometimes (or there would be no bug tracker). But all in all, I have far more complains about players’ behavior and actions than I do with the Devs. The difference?

Devs are willing to listen.

[acraig]

I think most of us ( the team ) realize that we won't be beating Warcraft anytime soon but that's part of why the team is successful.  We realize that we have to set realistic goals and take small steps.  A lot of these projects end up biting off more than they can do at once and get fustrated and just toss up their hands under the weight of their ideals.  We set the bar low to start with and raise it up as we go.  Considering from where we started we are doing pretty good.  Just need to push that bar a bit higher.

Does the project move slowly?  Depends on how you look at it, from a player point of view it probably moves pretty slowly with some jumps as new stuff is added.   From a developer point of view it's rather a lot quicker than that.  Something is always being refactored or changed or fixed.  The key point here is that work is always going on.  Even if it's at a snails pace sometimes work is continuing.  The time to worrry and complain is when all development stops and the project just rots.  I'd like to think the project is big enough now that can't happen.

I don't care if people think the project sucks if they can give good reasons  ( not something like "No mounts? OMG!!1! you are sucks" ).  But I do care when people discount our work or our efforts.   We put in a lot of time and effort into the project and when somebody comes along and tries to convince people otherwise, that's when I take offense.   

It comes down to four groups:
1)  You think the game sucks, you delete it and never do anything with it again.
2)  You think the game sucks and run to the forums to tell as many people as you can.
3)  You think the game sucks and you post on the forums and have good reasons why and willing to be patient.
4)  You think the game is ok and play it offering ideas what makes it better.

I can live without #1 and #2 and will do our best to help with #3 and #4.

Probably rambling here but killing some time before going home from work.   I will touch on the idea "If you don't like it do something to fix it!"  or "why don't you join the team and fix it".   Personally,  I'd like to see those not mentioned any more.   Right now it's a complex system and their chances of actually doing something to fix it are about nil.  Now there are a few exceptions and we have found some diamonds in the rough who actually do fix things.   

When it comes to bugs or features they are usually:
1)  Easy to fix
2)  Complicated to fix

Complicated to fix either means that we have no idea how to fix it or no idea why it occurs.  The other thing it could mean is that there is a fundamental deisgn issue that needs to be resolved.  Hence a small bug might take weeks ( months! ) to sovle depending on the structures it affects.   Having to re-design entire sections of the code is not very easy because we can't just pull it out and fix it.  It's like trying to fix an engine on a moving car. You have to be careful about the things you do.   

Also, not sure who you are refering to that has left the team.  I know of a few 'developers' that left for various reasons and only one that had differences about how the team was run.   Everybody else seemed to fade away as we got more people.   If they had significant issues ( ie PS sux ) then why did they not bring them to me so we can address them?  I've said many times that parts of our code suck and working hard to isolate and remove those areas.  So not sure who you are refering to in your post about people leaving. 

And another thing.  Where did the idea that we are some sort of super secret stonecutters organization?  You know the real reason why stuff is 'secret'? Because for a while there we really didn't have that much to release.  So needed every 'suprise' that we could get.  Now that we have settings and art working full steam I would expect more 'stuff' to be shown.

[zanzibar]

This post is shorter than it looks!

Crj: We haven't lost a single developer because they moved on to start their own game project. Some developers have left because they now work on professional games, but that's real-life-job related so it's a bit different

There are people who have left and now have their own projects (Platnya and Moogie?), but they didn't leave PS because of their projects.

Some devs have also left for other reasons, a good portion of which was being driven away by the whiners, actually - so careful guys.

I've heard this from some people, but it's not really true.  In almost every case, the person in question had problems with the community or personality issues.  You obviously know a bit more than I do, but I don't know of a single case of a dev truely leaving because of "the whiners".

I do not wish to be crappy or mean but it seems to me that the 'official voice' of PS on these forums has become a little overly defensive.

There are a number of problems with the people involved with the project, but you have to keep in mind a few things.  They are volunteers.  They aren't getting paid to be polite or to put up with crap.  They typically have a large personal investment in the project, so it's natural for them to be touchy when it comes to criticism - no matter how constructive.  And they're basically kids.  We're talking about teenagers and people in their early 20's with a number of exceptions.  It's not fair to have high and heavy expectations in terms of their behaviour and maturity.

if a dev leaves because of whiners its the devs fault. they are too sensitive and need to realize if they want to develop on an open beta they need to realize that majority of the internet community are whiners. so thats something they must get used to.

Again, it's an issue of maturity.

Listen. I don't come here to be bitched at by anyone, and the moment I feel that this is no longer something that brings me any joy because of the sheer amount of stupid and misinformation (so much misinformation!) and arrogance and sheer hate directed in the team's direction, I will leave this board...Thanks to those who have shown their support - you guys are amazing.

I think it's quite possible that supporting you means encouraging you to leave the board for the sake of your own happiness.  Others can pick up the slack.

I think most of us ( the team ) realize that we won't be beating Warcraft anytime soon but that's part of why the team is successful.

Yeah, there is that, but for a team to be successful you also need to know how to take care of people.  I'm not sure the PS team is very good at that.

[acraig]

I think most of us ( the team ) realize that we won't be beating Warcraft anytime soon but that's part of why the team is successful.

Yeah, there is that, but for a team to be successful you also need to know how to take care of people.  I'm not sure the PS team is very good at that.

Explain?

[zanzibar]

I think most of us ( the team ) realize that we won't be beating Warcraft anytime soon but that's part of why the team is successful.

Yeah, there is that, but for a team to be successful you also need to know how to take care of people.  I'm not sure the PS team is very good at that.

Explain?

You and I have both witnessed out of control team members.  We've had candid discussions about them.  Some have left, some are still here.  If you want me to name names and link to posts, I think that would be more appropriate in a PM.  Many of those posts have been deleted though in order to protect devs and moderators from their own poor judgment, and I'm not sure you're so ignorant of their lapses in judgment as your question suggests.

Taking care of people goes both ways though.  Just as individuals like Moogie, Demarthl, and DaveG weren't good at taking care of people, we weren't good at taking care of them.  They were put into positions they weren't fit for.  They weren't given the tools they needed to succeed.  They were set up to fail.  Players such as myself didn't help by being so confrontational and self righteous, but I hold players to a lower standard than actual team members and I especially hold players to lower standards than individuals in leadership positions such as Xillix and Vengeance.  Other individuals have suffered from the culture as well, Karyuu being a more recent casualty though the warning signs were there for a year.

Planeshift is facing a crisis of leadership and community.  It cannot afford a culture where it is ok for devs to treat others as their lesser.  It cannot afford a culture where it is ok to be abusive if you happen to hold authority and power.  As a leader, you are a servant to those under you.  Not the other way around.  Xillix preaches that to join the team you must know humility, but humility is far more important for those at the top.  You are required to put your ego aside and to forget about your personal vendettas and knee jerk reactions.  Do you protect your own?  Yes.  But you do it in such a way – you do EVERYTHING in such a way – that everyone comes out feeling a winner.  You do not pick on people.  You do not insult or harass people.  You do not encourage others to engage in such activities through either example or turning a blind eye.

I'm not sure how else to put it.

[Draklar]

The obvious problem is the team being too soft on the players.

From all discussion boards I visited, Planeshift forums have the softest approach and at the same time spawn the most chaos.
In places with strict moderation it's something completely safe to allow political/religious discussions, whereas over here this is a no-no.
Some professional boards will even state all negative posts will be deleted.
I'm actually surprised to see an admin give a polite reply to a topic, which falls under an obvious case of "deletion+warning material" in most professional/semi-professional forums.

[zanzibar]

I don't see it as being soft.  Being polite doesn't mean you agree with the person.  You can respect the person without respecting their ideas, or even their behaviour.

[Draklar]

See, you don't see it as soft.
People from different boards will.

That's the difference. Over there people know when to state their opinions and when to shut up.
Over here people believe it's their genuine right to argue with moderators.

[neko kyouran]

I could delete everything I don't care to read?  Would that make you feel better?

[zanzibar]

See, you don't see it as soft.
People from different boards will.

That's the difference. Over there people know when to state their opinions and when to shut up.
Over here people believe it's their genuine right to argue with moderators.

I've been a member on quite a few boards since the mid 90's.  I've witnessed quite a few moderation styles and their effects.  I see treating people like human beings as a good thing, especially when you're talking about a community as reliant on fresh blood and cooperation as this one.

I could delete everything I don't care to read?  Would that make you feel better?

I can share with you my observations and experience.  Ultimately, it's up to you how you conduct yourself.  Personally, I don't see why you feel it's necessary to protect your authority by making threats.  In fact, I don't see why you think it's necessary to protect your authority at all since it isn't being questioned.  All I can point out are the consequences of your actions, whether they be hate literature on the net or losing individuals like Karyuu.

[Draklar]

I've been a member on quite a few boards since the mid 90's.  I've witnessed quite a few moderation styles and their effects.  I see treating people like human beings as a good thing, especially when you're talking about a community as reliant on fresh blood and cooperation as this one.

When we're talking about community reliant on fresh blood, it's important to have a friendly community. And if you want a friendly community, it's better to kick three trouble-makers in their faces, rather than allow the said three argue with devs and moderators on and on until the boards are seen as root of all evil and widely avoided by decent community members (as it is happening now).

[zanzibar]

I've been a member on quite a few boards since the mid 90's.  I've witnessed quite a few moderation styles and their effects.  I see treating people like human beings as a good thing, especially when you're talking about a community as reliant on fresh blood and cooperation as this one.

When we're talking about community reliant on fresh blood, it's important to have a friendly community. And if you want a friendly community, it's better to kick three trouble-makers in their faces, rather than allow the said three argue with devs and moderators on and on until the boards are seen as root of all evil and widely avoided by decent community members (as it is happening now).

Do you honestly believe that's the situation here?  I'm afraid it goes far beyond that from what I've seen during my time here, and many others seem to agree.

[Draklar]

Looking at the accusation (concerning consequences) towards Neko's actions you posted up there, I don't think you have a near to decent idea on the situation that's happening here. This isn't to say I think the situation is deep at all. In fact, it's downright shallow.
It's based on a simple thing called frustration. Everyone are frustrated and that doesn't do well for professionalism.

How much abuse one can take before getting frustrated depends on personality. But professional or not, in certain environments everyone are going to get frustrated at one point or another.

[Zan]

Leaders as servants of the people eh, Zanzi?

I don't quite agree with assigning them an inhuman elevated position.

The inability to make mistakes does not make a better person. It is the act of messing up occasionally, acknowledging that fact and learning a lesson from it that turns us into better human beings.

You say that you see treating people like human beings is a good thing, yet you find that the Devs, moderators and GM's need to act above human standards?

Well I'd much rather have a humane leader who shows emotion and care, at the risk of venting frustration from time to time, than one who acts with professional courtesy at all times but may think we're just a bunch of kids, not worth getting riled up about.

In my opinion, your way creates a gap between player and dev and gives rise to the feelings of superiority, which you want to avoid.
 

I've seen a lot more emotional involvement and community-dev contact in PS lately and I have to admit that I like that change. I'd much rather have my devs to be people with feelings, who I can talk to ... but whom I can also hurt as a less positive but necessary side-effect ... than elevated servants who stay behind their masks of leadership.

Being human also means you don't need to take someone's crap if you don't want to, it means you can show anger ... as long as you do not become anger.

To round up my, problably pointless, opinion I'd like to say that I commend people like Karyuu and Xillix who give their, sometimes emotional, opinions about certain encounters and show very high levels of maturity at the same time. And I'd like to see the people who think the only defense against the hordes of egocentrical and insensitive internet dwellers is becoming insensitive themselves, being dropkicked back into the stone age.

Don't become an asshole because you're surrounded with assholes, it'll only make the smell worse.