Author Topic: Roleplay vs. powerlevelling  (Read 6700 times)

Cebot

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Re: Roleplay vs. powerlevelling
« Reply #75 on: September 04, 2007, 06:11:02 pm »
I see bot one problem with your idea durza. (tho i like the idea)
A Mage would want to learn all the 6 ways of magic and master them, also would want to master anti magic to have defense against other mages. (makes 7 skills)
A warrior would want to master Sword and armor, there are 3 kinds of armor and a really good warrior would know how to use all 3 kinds to it's best (makes 4 skills)
A crafter would want to learn how to craft different things, for example they start with crafting knifes and daggers, become masters in that, but then want to craft axes and swords and shields (and armor, when it will be available) too and a really good blacksmith would want to master those areas too (makes 4 (with armor 5) skills to master) - tho mining is also some kind of craft, unsure if to add it here or to count it as an extra field...

You see that it would need a maximum of 7 skills to be able to master, now here comes mister uber character and says: I master crystal way, to shoot arrows of maximum power and heal myself, what do i need potions then? I also master all 3 armor kinds. Wait, I need money, so I master metallurgy and Mining too and oh well, i want to cause maximum damage to my opponents, so i also master the art of axe handling.


there we go, he has picked up 7 fields of interest to master and still is mister uber char. mister uber char thinks mastering crystal way is not needed, since potions are so cheap and learning magic is so expensive and time consuming, he also decides that he doesn't need light armor to be mastered since he wants to be mister uber char and would use chain and plate mail all the time, he then can learn and master blacksmith and sword making and won't have a need for crafters anymore.

I like the idea somehow, but making restrictions of how many skills you can master will cause problems too.
I also stated before that i dislike the idea of making restrictions to classes, so that would also not help much, but how about this idea?

Mister uber char got the money, the pp's and the time to master ALL skills available, but when he has mastered - lets say - armor and weapon and then learns crafting, he will forget some tricks he has learned, learning crafting takes a long time, so if mister uber char masters this he probably has forgotten some of the tricks of handling his weapon as best (means with time the skill will lower)

imho thats realistic and makes sense. because:
I learn a language, become very good at it, but then don't use it for ages, i will most probably forget a lot of vocabulary, also some grammar and the pronounciation of the words, due to the lack of using the language. Same goes for everything else.
A swordsman who hasn't used the swords for some time will forget some of the things he was able to do before.
A magican who doesn't use it's magic for some time maybe remembers the wording for the spell, but may forget about some other things that made the spell so effective.
A miner who hasn't mined for ages may forget about how to throw the pick into the ground to get the best resultat (best/most ores)
A sportsman who used to run all around yliakum, but then does not even walk alot for some time (like during learning crafting), his muscles become weaker, he will become slower and so far.

so the idea behind this is: be lazy and you will get fat and rusty :)

a concept for that could be like: use your $SKILL less than X times in $TIME and you will drop Y levels of the skill.

I know, some people will now throw phrases at me and call me names, since training already is hard and costs a lot of money, but look at it from a different angle, see it from the realistic point: it's very realistic to forget things you once have learned. period.

greetings, Cebot :)

Edit: They will always blame you, xillix :P
* Cebot sneaks away and whistles innocently
« Last Edit: September 04, 2007, 07:42:47 pm by Cebot »
So why do I love when I still feel pain?
When does it end, when is my work done?
Why do I fight and why do I feel that
I carry a sword, that I carry a sword through a battlefield?

VNV Nation - Joy

CrazyYlian

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Re: Roleplay vs. powerlevelling
« Reply #76 on: September 04, 2007, 06:45:49 pm »
Good thread...  5 pages and minimal flames, I'm impressed.

Engagement with the engine is not powerleveling, nor is it the enemy of roleplaying.

<snip>

I think in general the term poweleveler is thrown around too liberally.

Amen.  As is the term "Avid RPer".  Although I seem to find plenty of people ingame who like a nice balance of playing the game (mechanics) and RP, and who can RP the same character they are actually playing.  I think these forums must have a higher percentage of posters from either end of the spectrum, the ones who favor balance don't post as much?

Personally, I find either end boring.  As others have pointed out before, RP while ignoring mechanics is just a 3D chatroom, while leveling and acquiring loot & tria quickly turns into Diablo...  What makes PS fun is that there IS a mix.

But since this thread has brought up just about every aspect of the game, and since this IS the complaint department:
I think the addition of one teensy weensy litlle map (yes, I know there is no such thing..., but I'm complaining) would actually address many of the points in this thread and others.  Namely, open up at least a small section of the Stone Labyrinth.  It is just so essential to the game.  Settings, NPCs, Quests, you-name-it, all refer to it constantly, yet it doesn't exist.  (Oops, probably should have been in the inconsistancies thread...)  And I can't be the only one who's thought this, because I routinely run into new players wandering around the BD fortress looking for, guess what, the actual doors and a way into the labyrinth.

Besides opening new territory for hunting and fighting (pleasing the more action oriented), it would provide major hooks to the settings for RPers.  And since combat is by far the most effective method in the game so far for leveling, it would help the balance by combing the two.  Levelers could do their thing, playing the mechanics without being seen as as OOC.  The arena could then become what it is supposed to be, a practice area, while the monsters and villains in the labyrinth could be more (as in more kinds, bigger, meaner, etc.)  Right now, training as a fighter is kind of weird from an RP sense because as a career there's nothing ingame that makes sense. 

 Well, I'm off to work at the arena, honey, gotta go kill a few hundred gladiators and rogues. 
 Ok, dear, <smooch> have fun, and could you kill a few trepors too? I need some wiggly feelers to decorate the den.

Hmmm, hardly the mighty warrior, but RPing your character's whole life by sitting around the tavern talking about it doesn't cut it either.

I'm sure this falls into the its-coming-in-time category, but I'm not asking for the whole labyrinth with 8 levels and all, but at least think about a small section.  It really would tie a lot of things together.

Duraza

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Re: Roleplay vs. powerlevelling
« Reply #77 on: September 04, 2007, 07:26:43 pm »
thing is they wont blame you

who will they blame?

True...I'll just be the dumb guy with the idea, you'll be the person getting yelled at for taking me seriously  ;D

@Cebot I do like the idea. Its kinda like a skill decay.....
After a while you start to lose levels in a certain area because of training in other areas and for the fact that it makes sense that if you don't keep practicing you will forget. It was actually brought up in the wish list before I believe. Of course there would have to be a maximum amount of the levels that you could lose else people would be pissed if they had level 80 sword, didn't play for a month, then got level 17.....
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Cebot

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Re: Roleplay vs. powerlevelling
« Reply #78 on: September 04, 2007, 07:45:03 pm »
well,  think the offline time should not be taken into account. only the time you really spend ingame doing other things than using the skill you have learned
So why do I love when I still feel pain?
When does it end, when is my work done?
Why do I fight and why do I feel that
I carry a sword, that I carry a sword through a battlefield?

VNV Nation - Joy

bilbous

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Re: Roleplay vs. powerlevelling
« Reply #79 on: September 05, 2007, 12:21:54 am »
I am convinced the best way to prevent know-it-alls is just to have too many available skills to master them all. The current situation is the way it is becausethere are too few currently implemented and characters have been allowed to continue to exist for too long, through too many changes to the system. I would be very interested to see how long it would take to have even 50 completely maxed characters from a full wipe. I am certain there are some players who play 10hrs+ per day, I was once on for nearly that much myself for several months. These are the players who are bound to max out the fastest and they will always be around. It took me a couple months at the time to max out when there was a much reduced skill set. I did it mostly independently too as I have never been part of a guild and always felt the player prices amounted to extortion. It would seem to me that it would be far better for the role players if there were to be a full wipe with every new release as they would then have more justification for not having stats to match their chosen role. Certainly it would make it harder to test out the higher level functionality but the die-hards would likely still get up there before the next wipe.

I do understand though that this is an unpopular opinion and not likely to happen. There is just too much suspect money and skills around for my liking.

zanzibar

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Re: Roleplay vs. powerlevelling
« Reply #80 on: September 05, 2007, 03:23:46 am »
In the end there is nothing that can end powerleveling.
Not true.  Get rid of levelling all together.:)

A Mage would want to learn all the 6 ways of magic and master them
Not necessarily.

there are 3 kinds of armor and a really good warrior would know how to use all 3 kinds
Not necessarily.

A crafter would want to learn how to craft different things, for example they start with crafting knifes and daggers, become masters in that, but then want to craft axes and swords and shields (and armor, when it will be available) too and a really good blacksmith would want to master those areas too
Sure they'd want to, but would they be able to?  To be realistic, they would probably become really good at only one thing.  There are plenty of craftsmen in real life like that - thus the phrase "jack of all trades, master of none".
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Duraza

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Re: Roleplay vs. powerlevelling
« Reply #81 on: September 05, 2007, 08:33:45 am »
I am convinced the best way to prevent know-it-alls is just to have too many available skills to master them all.

I disagree. The more the skills the more I see a big botting problem. Take a MMORPG I know called silkroad. There are tons of skills, each that have 80 levels. Plus the characters actually can level up to 80 (so you have to level yourself and your many skills). The game has millions of players(no rp) but of those players half of them are bots. Another large percentage are players who take other characters and level them up for players(by botting). The game had such a bad botting problem that it had to shut down the server (periodically) to try to eliminate botters. Right now they still have a lot of them and I rather not give a botting problem to ps as well  :P
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bilbous

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Re: Roleplay vs. powerlevelling
« Reply #82 on: September 05, 2007, 10:17:10 am »
I played Silk Road, it was endlessly boring. I didn't get into the trader/thief/hunter sub-game much  but I do not agree it had a lot of skills. If I recall correctly it had three weapon type skills and four magic type skills, all with 6-8 sub-skills and a limited number of possible level-ups. You could not max out all your skills, only a selection, not only major skills but the sub-skills. If you only leveled one magic and one weapon you could max out their sub-skills but not much else. Perhaps it changed since I got tired of it. I foiund it to be quite limited, in fact.

In PS there are slated to be many more skills than that with many more levels, also the progression system is much different as you actually have to use a skill to level it.

zanzibar

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Re: Roleplay vs. powerlevelling
« Reply #83 on: September 05, 2007, 01:58:49 pm »
I am convinced the best way to prevent know-it-alls is just to have too many available skills to master them all.

I disagree. The more the skills the more I see a big botting problem. Take a MMORPG I know called silkroad. There are tons of skills, each that have 80 levels. Plus the characters actually can level up to 80 (so you have to level yourself and your many skills). The game has millions of players(no rp) but of those players half of them are bots. Another large percentage are players who take other characters and level them up for players(by botting). The game had such a bad botting problem that it had to shut down the server (periodically) to try to eliminate botters. Right now they still have a lot of them and I rather not give a botting problem to ps as well  :P

That surprises me.  There used to be a crowd here that would always sing praises for that game.  (Especially Moogie and Zayek/Keyaz/Demarthl/Pinache).
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Feline Prince

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Re: Roleplay vs. powerlevelling
« Reply #84 on: September 05, 2007, 04:55:38 pm »
The Art and Interface are lovely. Its just a rather bland game to play. I'm my own opinion of course.
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Duraza

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Re: Roleplay vs. powerlevelling
« Reply #85 on: September 05, 2007, 05:11:31 pm »
Yeah I personally don't like it. The actual looks of everything are great, like the art work etc. Also the pvp system isn't bad. However usually I play to rp and even if I tried things are so unrealistic that its pointless. I play it occasionally but only when I feel like grinding for no good reason.

I played Silk Road, it was endlessly boring. I didn't get into the trader/thief/hunter sub-game much  but I do not agree it had a lot of skills. If I recall correctly it had three weapon type skills and four magic type skills, all with 6-8 sub-skills and a limited number of possible level-ups. You could not max out all your skills, only a selection, not only major skills but the sub-skills. If you only leveled one magic and one weapon you could max out their sub-skills but not much else. Perhaps it changed since I got tired of it. I foiund it to be quite limited, in fact.

There are 3 weapons and 4 magics but each weapon has about 15-20 skills and each magic the same. You can level each and every single thing you just have to have the appropriate character level and skill points. In the end that makes for a large amount of skills to master (it just takes a long time for one to notice because you have to get to such high levels). While the skills  are intresting and flashy in the end things become boring because your not putting them to any true use but killing the countless npcs to get to higher levels and get flashy weapons.  The only actual thing I did like was the thief-hunter-trader thing (which really is the main point of the game now). The fact that they tried to model conflict was intresting. The idea behind it was that the Silk Road historically was a place where traders tried to move valubale goods, body guards(hunters) would protect them, thieves would steal from these traders, and more hunters would kill thieves for bounties. Putting that concpet to rp would have made an intresting game but instead by enabling the factors they did and making it all about the grind it really becomes unintresting.

Edit:
Oh I also forgot that each skill that the weapons and magics had could also be leveled. Then when you got that starting skill to its max level and your character to a certain level you could obtain an entirely different skill which basically was the same skill as before only more advanced........which only helps to show how much grinding one would have to do to master that game.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2007, 05:14:26 pm by Duraza »
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Re: Roleplay vs. powerlevelling
« Reply #86 on: September 06, 2007, 07:56:30 am »
I’ve been thinking about the original topic of this thread. Of course I have my opinions about both sides of the coin but they’re just that, my opinion. I’ve been trying to figure out a way to help come up with an in game solution that couldn’t be broken by the so-called ‘power levelers’ but I cant seem to find one...

For the here and now we could maybe start a thread where once a week (real time) characters are nominated for good role-playing. Simply add the character name you thought was well played to the thread (maybe even add a copy of your PC log showing an example of what you liked). Those PC’s that get X amount of votes get something like PP, tria, maybe some type of badge added to the character’s profile. There would have to be rules of course, like the obvious, you can’t nominate your own PC. Maybe also have a rule where you can’t vote for members of the same guild or guilds that you belong to <(this would be hard to monitor though). Maybe somebody better at this than me could expand on it and make it work somehow. I’m thinking it isn’t for Dev’s to work on, it’s to help in-game role-playing here and now. Give an incentive to help coax players into role-play.
Ok, Dev’s may need to add any bonuses to the character (PP, tria, etc.).  :P

Anyway, the forum nomination thread thing is just a thought...

For an actual in-game wish list kind of thing I was thinking something like this could maybe be added to the character profile view someplace. Maybe have a button somebody could click if they like the way the character is role-played. But figuring out a way this couldn’t be broken is almost impossible.

Garon

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Re: Roleplay vs. powerlevelling
« Reply #87 on: September 14, 2007, 05:32:47 pm »
It's possible to powerlevel a char to max stats and almost maxed weapon skill within two weeks, not to forget armor and magic - and you will still find the time to roleplay this char most of the time. Think it's impossible to get a char up in skills and stats that fast and still rp all the time? Well, I have done it, I had the time to PL him, I had the time to make up a RP story for him, to give him a history that explains why he is doing what he is doing and I had time to do quests with him too, at the same time I had the time to sometimes even play with Cebot. So you see, it is possible to train and rp, just remember that you do not need 200k to begin with, remember that you do not have to boringly stay in front of a gladiator to fight it, remember that they are gladiators and use tactics too, so think about tactics you could use to beat em when you are too weak.
Of course, how realistic is it that everyone is a super powerful magician-warrior with no weaknesses?  It makes little sense ICly.

When playing PS (I usually play a more rp intensive game), I try (rather, tried) to roleplay my stats.  As such, I was a relatively competent warrior, but nothing special, who had learned a few tricks in the various ways (basic spells) in order to suppliment his fighting.  Mercenary, too.

Playing such is pointless when you have so many people with maxed stats roleplaying their stats--in any given situation, the person who spends little time powerleveling in comparison to roleplay will be made obsolete by the people who keep their skills maxed at all times.  Obviously, they're more skilled then someone else, but it makes roleplay seem pointless, because there is little spot for those who do not become the l337-uber warrior mage smith that everyone else has become.


I also tried another mmorpg. it is like choosing a class, being totally restricted to that class until you have killed enough mobs to be lvl 10, then you can choose between 2 subclasses (archer: hunter / marksman) quests are boring as there is no real interaction with the npc, you just click on the npc with the BIG FAT ! above the head. and the best, I got told that most mmorpg's are like that. I know a lot have tried the same game and some have returned to PS, but why did they return? ps is soooo crappy according to what so many people say, yet the people come back after playing a finished comercial game for some time - a wild guess: most mmorpg's do not deserve the RP in the name and thats what people were missing? *shrugs* Welcome back everyone, btw :)
It saddens me tho that some of my earlier PS friends have left. but who knows, hopefully they will come back one day too.

Things like that are meant to keep powerleveling and reality defying uber l337 warrior mage smiths from existing.  A more open system would be nice in PS, where you can't master one skill except at the expense of others (for instance, if you spent all your time training in heavy armor, after a certain point your fighting in medium and light armor would be effected, because of habits that are good in heavy armor that aren't good in light or medium armor).  A balance would have to be reached, of course (because there are feasible medium-heavy and light-medium armor mixes that make rp sense, such as chainmail armor but leather armor on the legs.).  The same could be true for magic classes, weapons (related ones wouldn't suffer as much penalty, such as swords and daggers, but there are few swords you use like a battleaxe, polearm, or mace), and skills in general.

In the end there is nothing that can end powerleveling.
If you make it harder to powerlevel then to roleplay, people will roleplay more.  However, few see any reason to without a punishment for not doing so or a reward for doing so.

A Mage would want to learn all the 6 ways of magic and master them
And they likely could, to a point--but realistically no mage that did equally well in all spell schools would be as good as one who specialized in one, simply because the one who is specializing would be able to put time into his or her specialty at the detriment of his other magical skills (particularly opposing ways), because of habit building and whatnot.  It's the same in real life, with doctors:  generalists are never as good as specialists in the specialist's field, but might be able to diagnose or pass along a patient to the appropriate specialist in a much better way.

there are 3 kinds of armor and a really good warrior would know how to use all 3 kinds
A really good warrior would know how to use all 3 kinds to a point, but specialization comes into play here:  if one builds up the responses one has to make in heavy armor (blocking, using weight to their advantage, etc.), they would build bad habits for light armor (which relies much more on the person's ability to dodge and offers minimal protection, but is light and inexpensive).


A crafter would want to learn how to craft different things, for example they start with crafting knifes and daggers, become masters in that, but then want to craft axes and swords and shields (and armor, when it will be available) too and a really good blacksmith would want to master those areas too
Specialists > jack of all trades.  However, a jack of all trades will be of more use to an organization that needs a variety of weapons that don't necessarily need to be top quality.

---
I’ve been thinking about the original topic of this thread. Of course I have my opinions about both sides of the coin but they’re just that, my opinion. I’ve been trying to figure out a way to help come up with an in game solution that couldn’t be broken by the so-called ‘power levelers’ but I cant seem to find one...

Not allowing people to become masters of all trades would be a good first step to keeping powerleveling from being exceptionally effective (as it means that they will have to make choices, decisions, etc.).

For the here and now we could maybe start a thread where once a week (real time) characters are nominated for good role-playing. Simply add the character name you thought was well played to the thread (maybe even add a copy of your PC log showing an example of what you liked). Those PC’s that get X amount of votes get something like PP, tria, maybe some type of badge added to the character’s profile. There would have to be rules of course, like the obvious, you can’t nominate your own PC. Maybe also have a rule where you can’t vote for members of the same guild or guilds that you belong to <(this would be hard to monitor though). Maybe somebody better at this than me could expand on it and make it work somehow. I’m thinking it isn’t for Dev’s to work on, it’s to help in-game role-playing here and now. Give an incentive to help coax players into role-play.
Ok, Dev’s may need to add any bonuses to the character (PP, tria, etc.).  :P

(I've mentioned this before, but I'm going to shamelessly do it again)
Or we could have the GMs give bonuses for good rp outside of GM events (perhaps a bonus that gives xp towards progression points, perhaps trias (although that'd seem stranger OOCly, but as progression points are already not IC knowledge..) as the IG or OOC clock ticks) for rp.  And of course, have an official policy that requires that players do not complain about the GM team in public as far as RPing bonuses, and if favoritism is suspected, to report it in a special form only viewable by the dev team.

Oh, and ask the GMs to watch for those without bonuses before giving more to those who are already getting them, of course.  And if someone is just mindlessly mining away or mindlessly killing monsters, have the game system suspend it (making the assumption that they are already getting xp from the monsters/gold and don't need an extra bonus).

Pros:  More people will roleplay and less will power level, especially if the system goes on--even more so if it becomes a better source of xp to keep IC and roleplay with others then mindlessly kill things.  The main "powerleveling" trend would go away, instead favoring those who either want to make money (from drops or from gold) or level up in a skill.  You would still be getting the practice necessary for leveling, of course, but progression points would build up without the need to go fight and kill lots and lots of things.

Cons:  There will be numerous initial complaints about GM favoritism and how the dev team are going to mess up again (of course, this is Planeshift, what else do you expect :P).  Could theoretically be exploited by powerlevelers, but only if they were good rpers (The main idea is to balance it so that a -good- rper gets almost as much progression points xp as a powerleveler would, but has more fun).  Monster xp would have to be dropped a bit (or a lot) in order to keep that from being a viable means or creating a huge excess of PP, which could cause a huge money sink and really mess up the economy.  It doesn't fix the power-moneymaking problem (as just having trias appear in your inventory would be OOC).  One more duty for the GM team.

Solutions to some of the cons:  Say that the GM team will endeavor to keep it fair, and also say that it isn't open for discussion (this creates the con of deleting a lot of forum topics).  Set up very clear levels of roleplay and explain them to the GM team and the players.  Set up a way to give someone roleplay kudos (forum board simply for congratulating other players on their roleplay), which could serve as a way to keep track of people who should be watched because of good roleplay (esp. if they have a low rating in the first place).  There would be a lot of complaints about the xp drop in monsters and how you can't level as fast, make it clear that it's a necessary transition period.  Another solution for money obviously would have to be found (weekly gladiatorial competitions, poetry contests, and the like?  Mining would remain an option, of course, as would hunting monsters--it just wouldn't be great for xp.).  The GM team could likely adjust, and new members could be added if necessary.

The best time for such a system to be implemented would be right after a wipe, of course, so that everyone is starting on an even footing in regards to experience, so that complaints of "now it's hard" wouldn't be as common--it would be hard for everyone, not just players who hadn't already maxed their stats and accumulated huge amounts of PP.

Sarisel

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Re: Roleplay vs. powerlevelling
« Reply #88 on: September 15, 2007, 02:14:24 am »
A Mage would want to learn all the 6 ways of magic and master them
And they likely could, to a point--but realistically no mage that did equally well in all spell schools would be as good as one who specialized in one, simply because the one who is specializing would be able to put time into his or her specialty at the detriment of his other magical skills (particularly opposing ways), because of habit building and whatnot.  It's the same in real life, with doctors:  generalists are never as good as specialists in the specialist's field, but might be able to diagnose or pass along a patient to the appropriate specialist in a much better way.

A mage that want to learn all magic ways is extreme expensive, he have to learn some other skills for pay the costs of training.
I've seen not one character to have all skills at magic way mastered!
I've seen not one person who have mastered all crafting skills. I saw some who train for mastering sword making, and i know one who train for mastering daggers.
And who mastered all weapon and armor skills, do they can fight the uber Ulbernauts? No, they did not, they have to wait if there are other trainers comming and train higher.

For example:
I've crystal way 70 and each training costs about 30.000 trias, i heared the crystal way can be trained beyond skill 100. Then i've to train red, azure...
[I think this needs one or two years for me, but what is in one year? Skill 200, Skill 300?]

And for real life: a blacksmith must make hundred thousands of swords to be mastered. but is he mastered? did he make never mistakes ever? No, he is the best smith in swords but he also have to learn. "A rolling stone gathers no moss."


I think the balancing in game is perfect and the balancing of powerlevelers and roleplayers is perfect.
The people who do only powerleveling, they are borred in short time and you do not see them a long time online and you see them never again.
I started playing PlaneShift and the first i've read the players guide to fit the best character to me, then i did is some powerleveling for training some magic ways. But i like roleplaying games and read the storys of Talad and Laanx...
Do not force the powerleveler to do roleplay or do you think they are the best roleplayers? They must make their steps in roleplay to see if they like that or not.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2007, 02:17:09 am by Sarisel »
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zanzibar

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Re: Roleplay vs. powerlevelling
« Reply #89 on: September 15, 2007, 02:40:05 am »
It's called "specialization".
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