Author Topic: magic is weak  (Read 6067 times)

ThomPhoenix

  • Testers
  • Forum Addict
  • *
  • Posts: 2678
  • A Phoenix, what'd you expect?
    • View Profile
Re: magic is weak
« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2007, 09:07:58 pm »
I think the biggest part of "glyph crafting" would be actually finding the glyphs, which is hard as they can appear almost anywhere.
We're not evil. We're simply amazing.

Under the moon

  • Forum Addict
  • *
  • Posts: 2335
  • Writer extraordinaire.
    • View Profile
Re: magic is weak
« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2007, 09:41:13 pm »
Crystal hunting reborn! Now with purpose!

Phinehas

  • Guest
Re: magic is weak
« Reply #17 on: December 29, 2007, 09:48:37 pm »
But... crystal hunting was so much fun... I distinctly remember guilt-tripping Jekkar into giving me a diamond.

Jekkar

  • Hydlaa Notable
  • *
  • Posts: 666
    • View Profile
Re: magic is weak
« Reply #18 on: December 29, 2007, 10:37:11 pm »
I remember that you horrible man.
"A new day will come when those who rudely interrupt are swept away!" -Lereal

TDB

  • Traveller
  • *
  • Posts: 11
    • View Profile
Re: magic is weak
« Reply #19 on: December 31, 2007, 03:34:59 am »
My main character has 160 Charisma, 20 Crystal Way, and I can use up my entire mana on Energy Arrows—a second realm spell—and not even kill a single rat.  Meanwhile my other character with mediocre sword skill and two random short swords can kill one in two blows.  To me, there's no question—magic is ridiculously underpowered.
But also, some magic is ranged.

An Ulbernaught can kill my char in two hits, if it can catch him. But it won't usually catch him, so he can climb up a rock and rain ineffectual destruction on it for a few hours [game time, I think it's down to a hair under an hour real-time] until he kills it or someone stronger wanders by during a lull and kills it [or the server crashes, or I get dragged away from the computer, or...].

Even given how long this takes, it still seems to give better PP (and tria, since it's in a gold mine) than when he takes a sword and hunts Tefusangs and other things his own size.

Gravemind

  • Hydlaa Resident
  • *
  • Posts: 181
  • aka Nhil Sould
    • View Profile
Re: magic is weak
« Reply #20 on: March 15, 2008, 09:36:51 am »
The first thing that disgusted me was when I bought the flame glyph and learnt the spell and it turned out to be a circle of flame around you that does 2% damage to a rat. What I think would be SUITABLE is a single target touch-range damage with a 10 second cast time that will kill a rat in 2-3 hits. Call it 'Burning Hands' maybe.

It would be a simple 20 minute job to type up some code for new spells that deal damage at an equal rate to a guy with a knife who's only been playing for 5 minutes

unfortunatly, as it is, guy with knife will kill the s#!t out of an experienced mage every time.
There is an alternative, more probable theory that 9/11 was in fact caused by Hanson's 1997 smash hit 'MMMBop.'

neko kyouran

  • Guest
Re: magic is weak
« Reply #21 on: March 15, 2008, 03:51:39 pm »
* neko kyouran thinks you should talk to knowledgeable people in game about magic and find out that there are other spells that are more powerful.

also, if you think its only 20 minutes, you're free to DL the code, compile and install your own test sever/client, write up a new magic spell, test it, create all the appropriate graphics for it, and submit it to the team for review.  call it a hunch, but I think I can guarantee that it'll take you more than 20 minutes.

SynergfyFlo

  • Traveller
  • *
  • Posts: 24
  • Reborn heathen, playful pagan, latterday druid!
    • View Profile
Re: magic is weak
« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2008, 04:47:14 pm »
please, please, folks :(

let's get this sorted - i progress much faster with swordsmanship, probably also because it is much more feasible to use a blade in an encounter - so it's much more difficult to gain pp with magic.
and i'd really like to find out which glyphs can be combined well for new spells, but i have not met anyone in-game who is willing to chat much about this kind of stuff - heck, i've even tried to find a suitable guild...no response yet...

pleeeze!  :sorcerer:
Next to myself,
I consider all of life
as my teacher.

Prolix

  • Guest
Re: magic is weak
« Reply #23 on: March 22, 2008, 07:35:08 pm »
You should not need to look further than the guild thread to find a guild that can help. As for characters in game you could always try to follow the incessant tinkle of magic and ask someone standing around wasting their mana practicing this spell or that to no effect. I ran into a couple of them yesterday in the winch, one was casting a fire spell I did not recognize at a pillar beside the fire mage, and the other seemed to be casting the healing spell repeatedly. The healer may have fallen off a rock and stubbed his toe but I doubt it and the fire guy had no target I could see so I guess both were just "training." I like to train effectively (i.e. use spells for a purpose; heal, or cause, actual damage; but admit some ways can appear pretty useless at times.

Anyway Phinehas has a mage guild and the empire has one too but I suspect that both have qualifying restrictions to weed out those they deem undesirable. Mostly to ensure you role play, I think, and not completely arbitrary, but I have not tried to join any guild so I may be wrong. I recall there were a few others too but they may be defunct. The guild forum is still your best bet.

lucasjung

  • Traveller
  • *
  • Posts: 13
    • View Profile
Re: magic is weak
« Reply #24 on: March 23, 2008, 10:50:59 pm »
* neko kyouran thinks you should talk to knowledgeable people in game about magic and find out that there are other spells that are more powerful.

also, if you think its only 20 minutes, you're free to DL the code, compile and install your own test sever/client, write up a new magic spell, test it, create all the appropriate graphics for it, and submit it to the team for review.  call it a hunch, but I think I can guarantee that it'll take you more than 20 minutes.

As someone who has written more than a few lines of code in my life, I understand and appreciate your ire at Gravemind for saying something as ignorant as, "It would be a simple 20 minute job to type up some code for new spells..."  However, I think that it would be valuable to take his overall sentiment seriously: many of the spells in this game are underpowered to the point of uselessness, such that a new player who has chosen "mage" as his concept must still rely on physical combat in every single fight.  As a general rule of thumb, the spells available to a magic-using character with a particular amount of experience should do about the same amount of damage over a given period of time as a fighter-type character can do with a sword over a similar period of time.  To put it another way, an almost-brand-new character with a frost spell should be able to kill a rat just as easily as an equally new character armed with a short sword.  This is clearly not the case.  While I will not make ridiculous suggestions that it should be "quick and easy" for the devs to whip up some all-new spells, I will say without hesitation that if the devs have been writing tight code and following good programming practices, fixing this imbalance should be as simple as altering one or two constants per spell to change the amount of damage they do.  This might require repeated tweaking over time to get the balance just right, but that is simply all the more reason to define such numbers as constants at the beginning of a file so that they can be easily changed later.

As for the actual balance that is to be sought, there is certainly room for much debate, as there are many ways to approach the issue.  I, for one, am of the school of thought that magic-users should generally be great on offense but lousy on defense: if a highly experienced magic-user takes on an ulbernaut, he had better kill it before it gets to him, or it will kill him in one or two hits, and he'd better hope there aren't too many around or he will run out of mana after killing the first one or two and be easy prey for the third.  That being said, there are other, perfectly good ways to balance magic with physical combat.  Unfortunately, magic is currently nowhere close to being in balance.  It is possible that it becomes useful for very powerful magic users, but it needs to be useful from the beginning.

I will finish with this offer: if nobody else has the time or inclination to fix this problem (and it definitely is a problem), and if the source code is well-written with clear comments (as opposed to spaghetti code with no comments, unintelligle comments, or meaningless comments--I have actually seen code with comments that said things like, "for-loop to go through every possible value of variable A21 and check for the best fit"  what is A21?  what are you fitting it to?), then I will be happy to go through the code for spells myself and tweak their power.  I propose adjusting once a month to allow time for feedback from players, especially from PVP (to get both sides--ideal balance will probably come when we get equal numbers of "too powerful" and "not powerful enough" complaints).

Xillix Queen of Fools

  • Veteran
  • *
  • Posts: 1876
    • View Profile
Re: magic is weak
« Reply #25 on: March 24, 2008, 02:07:16 am »
If you can code and are willing, apply for the team.

Vornne

  • Testers
  • Hydlaa Resident
  • *
  • Posts: 189
    • View Profile
Re: magic is weak
« Reply #26 on: March 24, 2008, 03:27:31 am »
Sorry, as far as I know the reason for this is that the code is messy and buggy, I'm guessing from what I've heard that at least one dev has tried and not figured out how to fix it. I suspect the developer that wrote the system is not around anymore.

I tried to make a new spell with svn once and it didn't work, though admittedly I didn't really persevere with trying. But I'm not exactly a newbie at setting up the database.

Kerol

  • Hydlaa Notable
  • *
  • Posts: 574
  • Assets > Asshats
    • View Profile
Re: magic is weak
« Reply #27 on: March 24, 2008, 04:24:01 am »
Xordan is the only one with the task to work on magic and it's not the only thing he's working on.
From what I got, he's on a complete rewamp of the system and is not interested in doing "quick and dirty" fixes since they eventually need to be redone over and over. So once he's done (which won't be anytime soon), there will be a lot of spells (and I mean a lot) to discover that also should be balanced by then.

If you're experienced with this kind of work and up to it, you'd be more than welcome to apply for rules dev and help.

Edit: From what I got, spells are all DB based (math scripts, etc.), so little engine code to change there.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2008, 04:33:57 am by Kerol »


retired GM leader

Quq Leque

  • Hydlaa Resident
  • *
  • Posts: 70
    • View Profile
    • www.thewarriorsguild.nl
Re: magic is weak
« Reply #28 on: March 25, 2008, 11:30:47 am »
A complete overhaul sounds good to me. From the 35 or so spells in my book I use maybe 5 or so on a regular basis. Half of the spells I found do not even have an animation or effect on targets. Other spells have gotten way too powerful due to people exploiting bugged spells to level CW, causing an unbalance in gameplay.

Caarrie

  • Forum Addict
  • *
  • Posts: 3369
  • We want no UNFIXED bugs!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    • View Profile
    • PlaneShift3dMods
Re: magic is weak
« Reply #29 on: March 25, 2008, 11:40:38 am »
Half of the spells I found do not even have an animation

This is a known issue, and just like all other art ingame the art department has to make the effects, give it time and you will get the effects you want. Also you dont have to report missing effects on the bug tracker we know they are not there. No major work has happened on spell effects in a few years.