Criticism: Me and my big mouth.

[bilbous]

Aw, quit yer navel gazing and get back to bashing the feebs! You know they want it, you know they need it. So just glue it to their foreheads.

[Phinehas]

First let me say I have nothing but respect for Sangwa and what he has done with the DE and its various branches.

My reason for responding to that post was purely because it seemed a rather pointless attack for a very petty reason, sure there was some off topic non guild stuff in there but no more than there is any other thread.

The rest rather than being constructive seemed to show a lack of knowledge about the internal workings of our guild ranks by telling us to do what we already do and questioning the way Printh is set up to use a loophole in settings something quite a few other guilds do. The whole tone of the post was negative and aggressive rather than constructive so I apologise for responding in kind

That's right, keep digging your whole. Basically you're saying, I respect Sangwa, but what he had to say has no merit whatsoever, so rather than read it carefully and take suggestions, or at least accept that perhaps your guild is giving off the wrong perception and you should change how it is portrayed, if not how it's run, you essentially went defensive and attacked his post... again.

Anyway, for my part I'm sick of the idea that the actual poster is the only one who has to make concessions and that the person that the post is directed towards is justified in completely rejecting it and getting defensive if it's not worded "nicely". I'm not saying that completely rude posts are called for, I'm just saying you do need to have a little bit of a thick skin in life in general. People have said that "it's how you say it" that's important. Bull. I live my life by the principle that even people I don't like, or that I think don't know what they're talking about, or who are just rude may still have some significant insight into whatever it is about me they're criticizing, and that while I don't feel the need to thank them for their rudeness, I can at least keep quiet until I've had a chance to calm down and really think through what they've said. Sure it's nice when people are nice to you, but sometimes it doesn't happen. In Sangwa's case, he doesn't mean to be offensive, and objectively speaking he's not, but you can't please anyone. I grinned when I read his post/joke about the need to clean up the thread, but apparently other people were offended. For my part, I've actually had people get upset with me about the fact that I commented on their grammar as an afterthought of my post.

Like Sangwa, I'll use Duraza as an example... I criticized his RP in a way that would have offended probably 70% of people on these forums, and instead of getting all haughty and telling me I was a moron who didn't know what he was talking about, a week later I got a reply from him saying that I had a valid point and that he was implementing some changes. Good for him. For the rest of you, even if the critique is rude, chill... It's just a game, it's not like someone is questioning the purpose of your existence or your ability to be a valid member of society.

[Zan]

The rest rather than being constructive seemed to show a lack of knowledge about the internal workings of our guild ranks by telling us to do what we already do.

Have you considered that that says more about the state of your guild thread than about Sangwa?

[Liadan]

First let me say I have nothing but respect for Sangwa and what he has done with the DE and its various branches.

My reason for responding to that post was purely because it seemed a rather pointless attack for a very petty reason, sure there was some off topic non guild stuff in there but no more than there is any other thread.

The rest rather than being constructive seemed to show a lack of knowledge about the internal workings of our guild ranks by telling us to do what we already do and questioning the way Printh is set up to use a loophole in settings something quite a few other guilds do. The whole tone of the post was negative and aggressive rather than constructive so I apologise for responding in kind

That's right, keep digging your whole. Basically you're saying, I respect Sangwa, but what he had to say has no merit whatsoever, so rather than read it carefully and take suggestions, or at least accept that perhaps your guild is giving off the wrong perception and you should change how it is portrayed, if not how it's run, you essentially went defensive and attacked his post... again.

Anyway, for my part I'm sick of the idea that the actual poster is the only one who has to make concessions and that the person that the post is directed towards is justified in completely rejecting it and getting defensive if it's not worded "nicely". I'm not saying that completely rude posts are called for, I'm just saying you do need to have a little bit of a thick skin in life in general. People have said that "it's how you say it" that's important. Bull. I live my life by the principle that even people I don't like, or that I think don't know what they're talking about, or who are just rude may still have some significant insight into whatever it is about me they're criticizing, and that while I don't feel the need to thank them for their rudeness, I can at least keep quiet until I've had a chance to calm down and really think through what they've said. Sure it's nice when people are nice to you, but sometimes it doesn't happen. In Sangwa's case, he doesn't mean to be offensive, and objectively speaking he's not, but you can't please anyone. I grinned when I read his post/joke about the need to clean up the thread, but apparently other people were offended. For my part, I've actually had people get upset with me about the fact that I commented on their grammar as an afterthought of my post.

Like Sangwa, I'll use Duraza as an example... I criticized his RP in a way that would have offended probably 70% of people on these forums, and instead of getting all haughty and telling me I was a moron who didn't know what he was talking about, a week later I got a reply from him saying that I had a valid point and that he was implementing some changes. Good for him. For the rest of you, even if the critique is rude, chill... It's just a game, it's not like someone is questioning the purpose of your existence or your ability to be a valid member of society.

So if i ask whether or no you meant 'whole' or 'hole' you won't get mad? schweet deal.

And I'm curious, is this thread supposed to be about lack of taking criticism with a pinch of salt or is it mostly going to be about the DE  guild?

[Zan]

The Dark Empire of course, everything is about the Dark Empire! You should know that by now 

[Sangwa]

I believe some people here are not used to read the Guild Forums. I have avoided off topicness many times in many other threads in exactly the same way I did with this last one. I come in, ask people to stay focused and deliver my opinion so people can play with it for a while and generate information.

You are not the first person to snap at me. It also doesn't happen with me alone. That is why I've started this topic. One simple incident wouldn't be enough to get my attention.

Lolitra, the forum exists for discussion. All guilds have similar discussions to them. I am doing what has been done since always. I've repeated the same through PM's to Gag who PM'ed me, but that's because I felt I had to.

EDIT TO ADD: Let's not make this about the last thread though!

[Marqsaynt]

So why do I have to be met with a knife or a club each time I visit someone else's thread to give my opinion? I'd be lying if I said that takes my motivation, because I do enjoy discussing. But as a guild moderator I can not have my threads filled up with useless rhetorical or personal discussions.

Hey Sangwa, could be worse... people could be coming after you with a knife and fork.

Anyway, I've always seen you as a pretty level headed and straight forward forum moderator and was glad when you were put in charge of the Guild Forums. Overall I think you are doing a quality job and are capable of doing what a lot of people aren't; moderating without letting personal feelings overwhelmingly get in the way. However, I did have a couple thoughts on your critiques.

First off, make sure if you open with a joke that it's a good one. (or at least one that won't be taken the wrong way if the tone doesn't quite come across right.) If the right tone of the message isn't established in the beginning, it can skew everything that follows, even if it wasn't written with the intent of being overly critical, goofy, etc. I don't think this is usually a problem for you though so, I'll just blame any possible recent occurrences on the writer's strike.

Secondly, while I like and often can relate to your "cut to the chase" approach. It wouldn't hurt at least trying to remember to jump in initially with some of the basic pleasantries. Sometimes the critiques seem to pop up rather abruptly and kind of hit a person right between the eyes. It's sort of like seeing an old friend you haven't talked to for a while, walking up to them, and saying "I know why your girlfriend left you." Instead of at least starting out with a nice "Hey Fred! Long time no see. How's the family?"

Lastly, I think maybe the critiques would be most effective if they were, in general, focused on helping new(er) guilds that are trying to find their way. Now, I'm not saying that old guilds should be off limits for criticism just that, if a guild has people that care enough about it to keep it going for any substantial amount of time, it seems to me that they probably have their own core of people, like you have with the Dark Empire, (<--Thread specific obligatory DE reference. ) that are doing their best to improve the guild. Basically, I'd like to think that as well as you know the Dark Empire (<---Bonus Points x2) as their current leader, that other long time leaders probably have a pretty good feel for their guild as well, and arguably should be given the benefit of the doubt. Or put another way since I know not all "old" guilds are necessarily "good" guilds... Don't try to teach an old groffel new tricks. Save the pups instead!

Alright, I think I've chewed up enough of the forum's space. I applaud how you opened yourself up to comments about how you critique/moderate, it takes a lot of guts.

-Marq     

[Sangwa]

First off, make sure if you open with a joke that it's a good one.

Guilty.

Sometimes the critiques seem to pop up rather abruptly and kind of hit a person right between the eyes.

Guilty...

I think maybe the critiques would be most effective if they were, in general, focused on helping new(er) guilds that are trying to find their way.

I don't agree. I think every guild should be criticized for as long as people can come up with stuff to point at. I expect that same treatment on my own threads, because I want my guilds to improve, not to be stopped in time while people continuously and secretly laugh at the flaws they find. *paranoid*
Besides, I think I've hit all the new guilds already.

Concluding: foreplay, then the real thing. I get it, I get it. Oh, and no jokes.

Thanks.

[zorbels]

In this Thread I want you guys to tell me if you think I'm criticizing things the right way and if you think anything could be done to avoid these silly clashes that happen any time two people express different opinions.

What I have read on the guilds threads from you Sangwa is this ....

- Major thought goes into your posts (You don't post to just post)
- You are fair and accept peoples opinions even if they are not your own
- You are passionate about this game and want to see the guilds in this game functional not just empty with players massed together.
- You explain yourself when misunderstood in a professional manner
- You guide those who are new to the game in the right direction when making a guild
- You never give the impression that your guild is the best and everyone should be more like you. (This is just my opinoin from what I have read)
- You give people new ideas or take their old ones and help to make more of it .. to better it for lack of a better word.

I think when you give criticism Sangwa it is because you have a talent with running your guild, not to mention experience. I think this entitles you to dish out a little criticism here and there. You have earned your place in this community and I would hope the community agree's with this. Your only trying to help those who might not have considered other options before setting in stone what their guild is about or how it runs. I believe your criticism is not anything but helpful. I have never known you to be rude or pretend like your shit don't stink sooooo it boils down to it isn't you who is the problem, it is the people on the receiving end of the criticism that are at fault. Especially if they view your criticism like a personal attack. There isn't anything you could really do better in my opinoin. There also isn't anyway to prevent peoples feeling from being hurt when you do give your opinoin. I say just keep up with your hard work on ensuring that th guilds in this game are anything but empty.

[Phinehas]

So if i ask whether or no you meant 'whole' or 'hole' you won't get mad? schweet deal.

Of course not. Why would I? I mean, if it's a typo then I can either be grateful that you pointed it out and go back and change it(if it bothers me), or I can ignore it and move on if I don't care. If it's something grammatical that I actually didn't know, the same thing applies. If I'm concerned about it, I take it to heart. If not, it doesn't really bother me.

First off, make sure if you open with a joke that it's a good one.

Guilty.

Hey, I thought it was hilarious! Admittedly, that may not be the best testimony to whether or not it was good, but...

Also, Zorbels stated my opinion perfectly. Yay for her. And me. And Sangwa.

[Sangwa]

I will not tolerate further sympathy. No. Not on my watch.

And it even applies here! Marqsaynt, I think I'll take back my guiltiness from that one.

Anyway, thanks both who criticized me and those who complimented me. I'll try to improve.

[Duraza]

Firstly, to both Sangwa and Phinehas. You two need to stop with the kind words about me, it's going to go to my head and a big ego doesn't help me in my goal to stay modest 

Secondly, this all just reminds me of another thread about a slightly different topic but I believe all and all the same message. When reading another post do not read it and associate emotions with the words. Reading a post in the forums isn't like reading a book or roleplaying when the emotion will be clearly stated. It's not like talking to someone else where you can see the person's facial expressions when speaking so you can tell whether they are trying to say something rudely or politely. We are all different people and we all respond to things in different ways. This means that it is natural to make the mistake of taking offence to someone's words but you must remember it is equally natural for that other person to have not thought those words were offensive in the first place.

When it comes to me I'm the kind of person who doesn't mind a good argument and can actually enjoy it when people find loopholes in whatever I'm doing. Then I simply fix the loophole and when its an idea I have confidence in then I rather show the ideas effectiveness then proving it, not getting emtional about it and furthering what can be useless argument.

So basically, when you read a post I'd always do one of two things.

1.) Read a post that offends you again so you can maybe understand what the person is trying to say and calm yourself so you can respond in a more effective way that only challenges the arguers statements, not his or her emotions behind it.

2.) Imagine that the poster is saying those words in front of an audience in their underwear (or something else embarrasing for those who think thats too disturbing) 

[Sangwa]

1.) Read a post that offends you again so you can maybe understand what the person is trying to say and calm yourself so you can respond in a more effective way that only challenges the arguers statements, not his or her emotions behind it.

Interesting, I do this. I read the first time, then I hit reply and read it a second time on the topic summary. Then as I pick things to speak about I read a third time some of the stuff.

Another thing I do is re-reading my own post. The first time around I usually repeat myself or add defying sentences (I get carried away, I'm still 20), so the second read allows me to remove those things.

2.) Imagine that the poster is saying those words in front of an audience in their underwear (or something else embarrasing for those who think thats too disturbing)

It's not very disturbing, as I'm cool with general human anatomy aesthetics, but it can be a little disrespecting in some cases. There are players old enough to be our parents.

You two need to stop with the kind words about me, it's going to go to my head and a big ego doesn't help me in my goal to stay modest

Phinehas, how could this simpleton see through our master plan?

[Phinehas]

You two need to stop with the kind words about me, it's going to go to my head and a big ego doesn't help me in my goal to stay modest

Phinehas, how could this simpleton see through our master plan?

Inconceivable! We must use our Jedi(or Azure Way in my case) mind powers upon him!

Another thing that I would add to what Duraza said is that if a post can in any way be construed as sarcastic or amusing, rather than offensive, construe it that way. Take Sangwa's joke for instance, it never would have crossed my mind to be offended at that, as it was obviously just in fun. I refuse to believe that the majority of this community is so utterly lacking in senses of humor as to not be able to see a little friendly sarcasm, or good-natured fun-poking.

[bilbous]

Sarcasm is usually meant to be offensive. Not always 'die in your sleep!' offensive and it can be lightened by careful crafting but it is mostly at someone else's expense. In jokes can be misconstrued by those who are out and used to justify hurt feelings and their expression. One should always be careful what you say and to whom on a public forum.