Criticism: Me and my big mouth.

[Sangwa]

I would enjoy, once and for all, that people would stop panicking any time I, or anyone else, delivers a perspective. There is never a reason for fearing the perspective of other people.

Since I began leading the Dark Empire, most of you won't remember when that was, I've been asking people to give me their opinion about it. Whenever I do something within my guild I usually put it up for discussion, so that my members can help me tune my own ideas. I look for their criticism because I am completely sure I don't know everything. If you ask any Imperial active in the forums, he or she can probably tell you that. In fact, I criticize my own work. That is obvious in some of my threads about the Dark Empire and in some posts within my private forums.

Actually, the people with leadership command in my organization are not only  close to me, they are also capable of telling me what they are thinking without having to care about my reaction to it. And I wouldn't have it any other way. I don't want people patting me in the back, I want help to improve myself and my organization.

So why do I have to be met with a knife or a club each time I visit someone else's thread to give my opinion? I'd be lying if I said that takes my motivation, because I do enjoy discussing. But as a guild moderator I can not have my threads filled up with useless rhetorical or personal discussions.

In this Thread I want you guys to tell me if you think I'm criticizing things the right way and if you think anything could be done to avoid these silly clashes that happen any time two people express different opinions.

Have fun!

[Phinehas]

Crush their puny minds with your criticism, I say!

Seriously though, I've been reading some of the criticisms that you've offered, and I agree with what you're saying here... I think people have gone soft since I left off haunting the guild forums and have lost their perspective on criticism. In fact, this whole community has turned into a place where it's more important to be politically correct and polite than it is to have a valid opinion that may be helpful to others. It's sad.

I'm going to come back to the guild forums so that people can get some perspective and go back to the days when everyone there hated me, and Sangwa was the good guy.

[Suno_Regin]

I hate when all I can offer is the word "same".

I don't read up on very many guild posts, but I agree that people can't stand their ideas being worse than someone else's, or someone trying to correct them and help them out. There's a point where people "side with" the person who's acting more polite in discussions like that...it creates a problem.

[Zan]

Actually, the people with leadership command in my organization are not only  close to me, they are also capable of telling me what they are thinking without having to care about my reaction to it. And I wouldn't have it any other way. I don't want people patting me in the back, I want help to improve myself and my organization.

You answerred for me.

Just one thing I want to add though ... drop your jealousy or dislike of the Dark Empire guild and stop associating it with everything Sangwa says. It is immature to fend off criticism by making accusations that have nothing to do with the discussion. If you don't agree with criticism that is perfectly fine, not everyone thinks the same or likes the same things. Just say so then but don't go jumping up like something bit you and attack the person who made a remark. Attack the remark if you must, shrug it off if you want.

[Sangwa]

I don't read up on very many guild posts, but I agree that people can't stand their ideas being worse than someone else's, or someone trying to correct them and help them out. There's a point where people "side with" the person who's acting more polite in discussions like that...it creates a problem.

My opinions are merely opinions. I usually only speak when I believe I'm right, or when I assume my participation can help, but I comprehend that it is possible that my opinions aren't applicable. And I still respect players who don't do exactly as I tell them, or anything that I tell them.

A good example is Duraza, whose projects I've continuously criticized, but he has never snapped at me. He took whatever he thought made sense for him and discarded the rest, without calling me rude, bitter or angry. He makes use of what we tell him in his own way: freezing some topics and approaching others.
He never changed whole guilds (which was pretty much what I asked in some stances) and kept faithful to his own ideas. And I respected and still respect him for that.

If you don't agree with criticism that is perfectly fine, not everyone thinks the same or likes the same things. Just say so then but don't go jumping up like something bit you and attack the person who made a remark. Attack the remark if you must, shrug it off if you want.

This is exactly what I'm trying to say.

[Leama]

Constructive criticism is a good thing. It is true not all people can take it. It is the way it is said that matters.

Example: “I do not think that pink top goes with that brown skirt.” Or “You look terrible, change your clothes.”

Mom always said, “Be careful of what you say because it can come back to bite you.”

Just food for thought for all people.

Respectively Yours,

Leama.

[Sangwa]

Constructive criticism is a good thing. It is true no all people can take it. It is the way it is said that matters.

It takes time to write a critique up, and time to search for what to speak about. It would take even more time if we would have to run a debug program for each sentence we make. "Will this be funny? Will this annoy? Will this sound ridiculous? Will this be taken seriously?" So critics are often left to follow their own personalities while writing up an essay on someone's work. As long as no personal attacks are made "You are a moron, you can't even dress yourself" and the point gets through "That skirt looks horrible, take it off." then things should be well. Obviously the replies to opinions should differ depending on the personality of the critic "Hey, I really like my skirt! You know, you could be nicer."

Any regulatory role can be thankless; one's good work and precious time is rarely if ever acknowledged. But by opening this thread and reminding people of your duties I am sure we can resume healthy debate.

I don't mind going without appreciation and I'll remain on my role for just as long as I am kept there, currently without regrets. This post is part of my effort to improve my own work. It'll be a lot more easier if there isn't any critics vs project members duels.

On a side note, to clarify something, giving opinions isn't my duty. My duty is moderating the forums so when users go there they can find Guild Discussion and Guild Information. Offering points of view is everyone's duty if they feel like participating in the Guild Forums.
Hence why this has worried me enough, because I am a moderator and I can not do a good job if I have people against me.

[Leama]

I applaud Sangwa's hard work. This is certainly not an easy job.

[hitancrias]

Sangwa, I'd say it would be good if you tried to surround your critique with a bit more of friendliness. The hamburger model is classic: start with something nice or something you agree with, then give your opinion and finish with something nice.

It would be nice if people could take your direct way of giving your opinion and would realize you are trying to help them. But since they don't you'd better adopt or prepare to be ignored and attacked. Being (overly) friendly is not the same as being politically correct and does not have to distract from what you are actually want to say. It's rather the other way around. When people feel offended they fight back and tend to ignore the actual content. If you want your posts to have an effect, you have to adopt your level of directness to the person and the topic you are addressing. Guilds are usually sensible topics because members are often very attached to their guild.

I'd say do what works: be kind to people who want to be treated kindly, be direct to people who want to be treated in a more direct way. Also you have three handicaps: you're a guild leader, a forum mod and an oldbie. That creates a distance and makes it more likely for people to react defensively.

[hitancrias]

Also you have three handicaps: you're a guild leader, a forum mod and an oldbie. That creates a distance and makes it more likely for people to react defensively.

That is not acceptable then is it? Why should any of these three facts lead to someone's reacting defensively? Surely the point of criticism is to take on board points that are valid on the one hand, and either to reject or to argue against points that aren't on the other.

If one is not responding to the contents of another's arguments but is instead allowing oneself to be swayed by external factors, that does not bode well for rational discussion, does it not?

Yes, you are absolutely right. Ideally, it should not make a difference. However in practice sometimes it does, which indeed harms a rational discussion. I don't know why exactly. Maybe they are afraid that they are looked down upon to, and hence feel the need to defend themselves.
I'm not saying it's bad to combine those things by the way, it has advantages as well.

EDIT: You make some very pertinent points on the use of tone Hitancrias,  but I think we should insist on creating and expecting an atmosphere where one can clearly and politely state one's views without trying to second guess the psychological state of the recipient.

EDIT:
Haha, that last remark made me laugh. . When in doubt, I usually picture a highly sensitive person on the other side of the line, just to be safe.

[Jekkar]

This thread should be locked, I totally disagree with the person that started it and I find him to be a most awful human being.
Now with that off my chest, Sangwa a person with your status in the community is bound to get certain people following your every step and criticizing everything you write. I know that you are a fair debater and you always think before you write. I wouldn't worry too much about people disagreeing with your opinion.
Sometimes I think people take this forum way too serious, they should spend more time in-game rp-ing.

[Sangwa]

Hitancrias, you are very right. And I try to do it like you say. But sometimes it evades my notice, as I get right down to writing what I think and forget to prop it up with the additional pleasantries. Other times it is just not possible, or very hard, to make a point without having the person kicking your sheen.

The difficult part is also calculating what is kind and what is simply lame. Last time I tried to start with a sort of joke, but I believe people saw it as a threat after reading what came next. I do admit my criticizing method was a bit direct, but it was hardly insulting or rude. Some other times I end up writing down stupid ridiculous stuff (that I edit) only to sound friendly.

It's true that when criticizing one should pay attention not to harm the person spoken to, but I believe it's also true that those listening should remember that they are not their guild and that opinions are opinions. I can say this because the Dark Empire has been criticized plenty and I never got really upset with any of its critics.

And expecting all critics to behave one way is like asking all project members to behave in a way. So we'd better go out and warn as many as we can from both sides.

I've even gotten this disclaimer in my signature, but people don't seem to take it for real.

EDIT TO ANSWER JEKKAR:
You're right .
I don't worry about them. I just like seeing the Guild Forum looking neat.

[eldoth_terevan]

Sticks and stones will break my bones, but names will never hurt me. MMORPG gamers are a particularly neurotic bunch. [smiles and laughs] You are not overboard in your criticisms, Sangwa. Be polite, be concise, don't be hateful, but state your mind. I don't really think I have seen you do otherwise. Someone mentioned the forums now being too politically correct, which is kind of a flip-flop from the flamewar that was 2007... things will even out. I like it when the forums stick to the game and stay away from personal confrontations, and I think the mods have been doing a good job recently.

[lanser]

First let me say I have nothing but respect for Sangwa and what he has done with the DE and its various branches.

My reason for responding to that post was purely because it seemed a rather pointless attack for a very petty reason, sure there was some off topic non guild stuff in there but no more than there is any other thread.

The rest rather than being constructive seemed to show a lack of knowledge about the internal workings of our guild ranks by telling us to do what we already do and questioning the way Printh is set up to use a loophole in settings something quite a few other guilds do. The whole tone of the post was negative and aggressive rather than constructive so I apologise for responding in kind

[Lolitra, Celorrim Purrty Twins]

Sangwa, I have no problem with your critique... about the 'pleasantries' that people share, which to some are meaningless, and other's mean a lot - yes they could be tidied.  But, It would have been nice for you to perhaps nudge the thread owner about this... say in a PM.  I am sure we would have come to an agreement there - as yes..  some threads are getting messy - mine one of them.