RP fights vs. game mechanics

[Meredee]

I had discussions about the so called rp fights including rolling dices with some people and I thought to start a discussions about them here... So, here it goes.

There are many RPG systems with complicated structures of stats and skills, where you use dices. If you attack, you always have to roll. But the result of your attack doesn't depend only on what you have rolled but also on your skill. So before you attack somebody who looks much stronger than you (GM tells you that), you will think about your chances and resign or attack him together with your friends.

In case of Yliakum, you also have complicated structures of stats and skills, you have dozens of offensive and defensive spells and you have the possibility to use this all in duel. And if you have swords level 30 you will NOT always hit for (let's say) 130, your attacks will be between 100 and 160 (let's say). The rolling is included. Besides, while duelling people are moving all the time and it depends strongly on your luck if you manage to hit the opponent or not (and probably on your technique but I think luck makes 70% here).

So... if the system exists, why not use it?

You will say, that people with low stats have to have equal chances, but... WHY?! If somebody wants to have 5 alts or doesn't want to train at all, they should just play weak character and don't start fights with stronger people. Just like in real life - if some big guy would be insulting me, I would never start a fight, I would just ignore him, run away or call for help. The same in game - I wouldn't just attack somebody who "may be impossible to defeat", because it's not realistic. Why should big Kran has the same chances in a fight like a teenager Dermorian girl? It's just not logical.

Even in standard RPG you never start with a hero, who could just beat everybody. You start as average and then develop your character for months or even years. Why should this development be ignored in PlaneShift? Why shouldn't people just play characters accordlingly to their stats? I always did and I even included it in my description (at the beginning my character was looking naive and weak, later quite self-confident but not really brave, now I think I'm going to change it to self-confident).

There is also other thing about RP-duels, that annoys me. I haven't seen a sigle one RP fight in which it didn't come to a long OOC which kills real RP. People always start fighting about whose turn it was, about interpretation of rolls and such. Usually it also comes to fights about who is a good rp player and who's not.

In the moment I'm thinking about ignoring RP fights at all because I see Im not the only one person who thinks they're silly. As somebody said to me - it's like playing a game inside of a game. You have the whole system but you still roll dices and interpret the results in your own way. I can roll dices in case I want to slap somebody's face, not in a real fight. I will just stick to the fact that many people "are somewhat stronger" or "may be impossible to defeat" for me and will just avoid making them want to fight me.


...does anyone has a same oppinion as I do? Or you have some arguments that justify the fact that someone can just come to me in the middle of plaza, say "hello" and write ...

                      ./.me unsheathes his Halberd and hit Meredee with it

...as it happened half an hour ago.

[Suno_Regin]

Meredee, in-game stats are crap at this point. Game mechanics are crap at this point. There's going to be a wipe at some point. Some people just want to roleplay, which is what this game is for. We don't want to go through all of the grind and unnecessary things in order to play, we simply want to play. Many things in RP fights are justified by character histories or roleplays that happened ingame to make them how they are. There's no point in leveling a character up just to have him wiped or killed in an RP fight later on, it's better to have a fresh character with justified events to make him powerful. If you feel you have to grind just to play the game, this clearly isn't the game for you.

[Quq Leque]

If you feel you have to grind just to play the game, this clearly isn't the game for you.

if you dont feel the need to use game mechanics, then use these forums to RP and maybe the game isn't for you ....
why even bother having any skills in game.

[Suno_Regin]

"/me" is for things outside of the game mechanics. That's exactly what it's there for.[/me]

However, at this point in the game, grinding's completely pointless. I don't see why it's a problem to be using /me.

[Zan]

I like RP fighting ... but only if the other people involved are mature enough to do it without arguing. Why? Because the duel system is extremely limiting and I hate being limited in my options.

There are different ways to RP fight from my experience. Some ways involve a lot of dice rolling and including stats and numbers in every action that influences someone else. This usually makes things complicated really fast and it often ends up in arguing. Then there are the complete opposites where no dice rolls are used at all and people just 'bash it out' in text. Without any rules things can easily get out of hand as well though, unless both players agree on an outcome in advance .. but then where is the fun in that? The third way, which lies in between those two would be to include rolls but forget about technicalities like which stats to use when and all that. Both the attacker and defender just use a six sided die for every action and the highest roll wins.

The last option has worked the best for me so far and I've had a couple very fun fights that way, even the ones I lost.

Or you have some arguments that justify the fact that someone can just come to me in the middle of plaza, say "hello" and write ...

                      ./.me unsheathes his Halberd and hit Meredee with it

...as it happened half an hour ago.

That is what we call godmodding .. a big risk when RP fighting and something less experienced people tend to do a lot. It's never fair to enforce an action onto another player without giving them a chance to defend themselves, even if it's a very small chance.

Instead the guy should have said ... /me unsheathes his halberd and tries to hit meredee with a surprising blow ... after which you agree on a form to continue your fight. Either one of the above methods or starting a duel.

[Quq Leque]

I didn't say it was completely unusable in RP, but solely using /roll to emulate fights accompanied with godmodding and stories that are clearly against settings goes one step too far in my opinion.

[Phinehas]

I didn't say it was completely unusable in RP, but solely using /roll to emulate fights accompanied with godmodding and stories that are clearly against settings goes one step too far in my opinion.

Well d'oh. That's like saying, "I think people pouring poison into my city's water system is one step too far.

Balance is necessary. The more mature the players, the easier it is to find.

[Zan]

godmodding and going against the settings are always too far. It isn't necessarily tied in with RP combat though.

[Duraza]

Firstly I'll say that when it comes to rping with dice I do dislike it. I think the dice rules for rp fighting personally are silly and that they aren't fair no matter how you do it. Too much relies on luck and not the actual abilities of the character you use.

Secondly I'll say I think pvp is worst. First thing it gives people the idea that "if its not in the game it should not be done." The game is incomplete so there are things that can not be done yet. However role playing is acting as if the game is complete. Does that mean that mean that if swords aren't implemented I can't role play to have one? No.

Secondly it gives people the idea that just because you level your character really high you can't be a god modder. Just because you have more time to play the game and level doesn't mean you should feel anyone who doesn't have the luxury is under you. I personally feel it just as unrealistic for someone who's just started the game to suddenly be able to rp himself all powerful because he spent a week grinding as I feel it silly for someone new who's just started to think himself all powerful but never trained. Just because you've got the stats to back you up doesn't mean that your in the right.

So why do I rp fight? Obviously because its the most realistic, not limiting like pvp, and whether you've trained or not its fair. I can rp fight and use magic and actually win unlike when I pvp and use magic which always ends in failure. Actual things like character intellegence and strategy can be used in an rp fight. Having maxed intellegence doesn't mean anything when in pvp so what would be the point after all  

As for god modding period I'd like to say two things. First god modding is when someone forces their abilities on another. So if someone says "/me kills you with a knife" that would be godmodding. Get where I'm going with grinded abilities? Just because my agility and strength are way higher than yours that doesn't mean I get to say "/me kills you with a knife." Even if you say "/me tries to kill you with a knife" I can bet you there are people out there who are going to say, "You should get killed because my level is obviously higher than yours." Secondly god modding isn't "/me is a demon" or something of the like. That again is touching on that whole "pvp makes one think if it doesn't exist ingame I don't have to listen to you." Having a special power is a touchy subject but I'd say things like that are fine as long as you have a consequence. For example if I say that I have a spell that inflicts perma death I have to have some kind of sacrifice like maybe after using the spell I have to spend an rl month in Death Realm. It needs to balance.

Thats all for today 

[Phinehas]

While I disagree about some points, all in all what Duraza said is fairly solid and more or less an accurate representation of my feelings on the issue.

* Phinehas pats Duraza on the head:

Good boy.

* Phinehas then knocks Duraza flying across the room, just for the heck of it and to model godmodding.

[Suno_Regin]

Besides, I'm pretty sure everyone who's posted here has already gone out of the settings.

For example, Meredee:
Your ingame boyfriend Fesek has a water glyph, which doesn't even exist. Does that mean he godmodes in your definition?

[Phinehas]

Besides, I'm pretty sure everyone who's posted here has already gone out of the settings.

What's your point?

[Quq Leque]

Then why always the need to fight with a character without skill, start a Yulbar pet shop or something 

Most RP's are either about a representative of some (un)known deity, being the heir to some throne somewhere or having discovered ancient powers that make then nigh invulnerable. If I lived in such a city I'd run off to the country and hide untill all deities, newfound kings and queens and ancient powers were done fighting. If there was a Hydlaa to return to ....

[Suno_Regin]

Besides, I'm pretty sure everyone who's posted here has already gone out of the settings.

What's your point?

That people are hypocrites. They complain about people going out of the settings and whatnot when they themselves do the same thing they're complaining about.

[Zan]

There is a difference between going out of settings and against settings in my eyes.

Having a water glyph is out of settings since we can't know such a glyph exists but with many other glyphs existing it's also not completely unthinkable to have such a glyph existing.

Claiming to be a vampire is against the settings. Planeshift has no vampires, planeshift has dark way mages with life draining spells.