well I'm level 5 now and have a few complaints...

[Under the moon]

Faster, yes. Needed? No.

A mentor is never needed, just helps move things along faster.

[ouch]

yes, one thing to keep in mind is that someone, at some point in time, came up with the skills/techniques to make that craft all by them selfs.

[Dajoji]

But the skills and techniques one might develop in their time would constitute the only existing knowledge if not passed on to someone else, who in turn, would have the chance to expand it. Mentors help their students surpass them and that is how a craft, in terms of collective knowledge, evolves. You can learn anything on your own but you won't achieve nearly as much.

Self-training should be available but it should only allow you to reach so many levels.

[Under the moon]

Adding money to the equation should do two things: Give you better resources to train faster and use your training stamina more efficiently. Second is to access special training you could not learn otherwise.

That is exactly what I stated. Money= paying a 'mentor' (trainer). One can not learn 'Harnquist's Special Hammer Technique' without a Harnquist, or someone who knows such knowledge. However, with enough practice, one can become a very good smith without ever having met a smith.

[Jonerian]

If you don't have a mentor close by you, than you still need a book or something similar. You need some type of knowledge how it was made in the first place. You can't tell me, that you can make a sword without ever seeing anybody doing it and never hearing anything form people who do it. Sure, OOC you KNOW what needs to be done (roughly, but I guess all of us would fail doing it really), but IC you need to gain the knowledge from somewhere. There is a reason why human beeings started out with clubs and didn't know how to make atomic bombs rightaway..

One could implement learning from books, learning from other players etc., but this generic way (just giving a NPC money, whatever they do with that) is okay for now.

There is an issue with posting multiple "complaints" in one thread, but I don't get why nobody picks on the economy and everybody is talking about getting knowledge from the air that we breeze..

[Under the moon]

Part of the problem with the economy -is- the cost of training. A large part. In my opinion, it is the main problem.

The high cost of training requires a method of gaining vast sums of money. The method of gaining vast sums of money devaluates or inflates the price of everything else.

Gold is not the root of the issue. It is the need to mine gold to support your training. No other method can compare. The need for vast sums of money for each level of higher training means there is an incredible (insane) amount of money in the system at a time. That amount of money can be gained whether you are training or not. Remove or reduce the price of gold (or other 'cash' crops such as looting certain NPCs), and you undercut training rate by forcing players to go slower methods or grind longer. You also make lower level crafting virtually worthless, as money will be horded to feed to NPCs for training. Bad, bad, and bad!

Now, on the other hand, if you reduce or eliminate the cost of lower training, and level out the medium and high instead of charging at an exponential rate, you no longer need the 'cash' crops. Ore and raw materials then go into the crafting system at lower costs, making items more affordable for all levels of players. Lower forms of money making then become a viable source of income.

In conclusion, training IS the main problem with the economy. It is the only main form of money consumption, and all it does is suck that money out of the economy.

[tadill]

I agree with you utm to a point  but training has been reduced in price this still has not helped much what needs to happen is anything that can be made by players should not be sold by or looted from npcs prices will work out in the long run by supply and demand the lower crafters could make money and use that for training

[Jonerian]

Well, no.
The cost of the training has nothing to do with the fact that it is not worth to do crafting and the only thing you can do is mine for gold. Yes, you need money for training and yes, this amount is really high, but what I get out of your posts, is that changing the amount of money needed to train solves the economy issue. This doesn't work. Even if training would cost only a tria per level, everybody would still need tria to buy stuff (or at least something valuable to sell, which is the same economy-wise) and you would still use the fastest method to get something valuable, which would be mining for gold.

If we have a near balanced economy (or at least somewhat near), than adjusting how fast you can level is another issue. A balanced economy would mean: as long as you do something sensible, you get a good amount of money/training material out of it, if you invest some time. Of course there can be differences, but not that some technically important parts don't make sense to do, becaus you don't get any value out of it.

short:
We have two issues:

Balancing economy
and
Adjusting the amount of time to level up in skills and stats

Of course the the amount of time is related to the economy, but it isn't depending on HOW you get the ressources out of a balanced economy (mining, fighting, crafting)

@tadill:
Yes, moving the economy in the hand of the players is an option and then the regulation would be in the hand of some thinking merchants. Parts of the economy are still fixed in NPCs and can't be changed by players.

[Under the moon]

No, you find that I am right. Remove the high cost of training and you can remove all of the easy money, leaving crafting and jobs as the main sources of income, and mining become just another job that needs to be done instead of the main source of income for half the playerbase.

Training is the main consumer of money. That makes it the base of the economy. Everything else branches off that need for vast sums of money.

[Jonerian]

Ah now I understand what you are trying to say (even if I don't understand that logic..):
In your opinion the efficient gold mining was exactly added because of the high cost of training and is needed because of that.

Well still, what I am trying to say: There is NO reason why it has to be a SINGLE source of income that is connected to the cost of training. You can balance the economy on whatever level you wan't to. You can get more money in other skills or less money in gold mining. If you decide, that there is a huge income needed because of the training, then you raise the income for other skills. If you decide the other way around.. do it the other way. Balancing the economy has nothing to do with the level where you do that. If the economy is balanced you can just multiply everything by whatever number you want to, in order to Adjust the amount of time you need to gain ressource for a certain amount of training. (Or change the training cost, which is äquivalent)

[bilbous]

I have to say that there are many people who just like to accumulate wealth. Not every person mining is training their stuff. Some are padding their guilds accounts to pay for a guild house others saving just in case something really cool comes along that costs a bundle.

If you want to alter the training costs you could always build up a set of "quests" from the trainers thay=t can be performed in lieu of cash payments. Blacksmith training could be bought, for example, by level specific tasks starting with x number of molten ingots in the beginning and later stocks and then stocks of specific quality or material, whatever it is that the player gets practice from. Mining could require specific types and amounts of ore. Fighter skills could require specific types of level dependent loot. Magic is a little more problematic but something could be developed to allow its inclusion.

[Zan]

I still stand by my suggestion from before, implement a training system where paying a trainer is not 'necessary' but only boosts your skill gain. Training at higher levels will obviously go extremely slow without hiring a teacher to help train you but it is still optional to pay for skills to be increased and not necessary for the low level characters at all.

[Dajoji]

My one concern about self-training is that, realistically, some disciplines don't leave much room for empirical trial and error. How many patients would you fail to heal in order to learn how to use a spell or concoct the right potion, maybe even causing their death? Not to mention there may be flaws in your fighting style simply because you didn't know any better. You might find out the flaw was there when your opponent strikes you down or cuts off a limb. The cost of self-training can be much higher. Now, self-training is less risky in many other disciplines but some would not only be slower to learn without a mentor but straight up dangerous too.

And, steering back to the economy thing, yes, training is the most important factor when determining the price of things. A "valuable" asset like a guild house, for instance, has to be above a good couple of million trias because that is what constitutes a lot of money right now. Not hundreds of thousands, millions. And that is due to the cost of training since in order to max a skill you need to acquire a few hundred thousand trias. However, I don't think it's as easy as lowering "tuition" or making it easier to make money, but reevaluating the skill system: the balance between practice and theory, the worth of every single progression point, the time needed to gather experience and the different alternatives to do so, etc. Item prices and how characters acquire money are the tip of the iceberg.

[Under the moon]

Dajoji: About your fist point, I completely agree. Self training should be slow as well as dangerous to the untrained. Casting spells you just within your limits would have a higher chance of failure. Trying out moves you have just learned can lead to mistakes and even self injury.

I support that 100%, and would find that method of training very appealing. Paying a trainer... I hate it, and do not do it. The way it is done is not even realistic to what it is supposed to be representing. Are we -really- getting trained by the NPCs? No! Not at all. You give them money and they say "Ya, this is how you do it. Now go figure it out on your own." What you are getting is payed for SELF training. If an NPC follows me to the arena or the forge, and points out what I am doing wrong and makes suggestions, then and ONLY then are they worth paying a damn for.

[Jonerian]

Are we -really- getting trained by the NPCs? No! Not at all. You give them money and they say "Ya, this is how you do it. Now go figure it out on your own." What you are getting is payed for SELF training. If an NPC follows me to the arena or the forge, and points out what I am doing wrong and makes suggestions, then and ONLY then are they worth paying a damn for.

Common, only because there are missing animations and no video explaining that you are sitting in a room while the NPC explains something to you, you are saying they do nothing for the money? Yes, you don't see anything, but you have to have a little imagination here.