Magic - How is it used in Yliakum?

[Jonerian]

The faction system does this better. The single charisma stat does not, and will not.

Charisma is not about the way you use it. If you have a high charisma, than you can use either way, good or evil. Like you can choose the crystal or the dark way. Like Intelligent people can use their intelligence to destroy the world or just make a profit or to help the society.
Factions are different, they are mainly about the direction not an ability of yours.

So if you don't have the right factions, but high charisma than you still have a chance of succeeding. If you have the right factions then you don't need good charisma to succeed. Charisma is basically just a more general way to reach something while factions only work where they fit.

Agility and Strength affect the damage done, but this does not mean that one of them is redundant.

[Under the moon]

* Under the moon shugs.

You should leave this up to someone who actually knows how to write diverse personalities and how they interact with each other. I see you still do not understand.

Have fun grinding to get charisma.

[Jonerian]

Thats it, i just realized that it is not possible to talk to you in this topic.

[Prolix]

* Under the moon shugs.

You should leave this up to someone who actually knows how to write diverse personalities and how they interact with each other. I see you still do not understand.

Have fun grinding to get charisma.

Have fun with your cookie cutter gingerbread men. Seriously, your example character types seem extremely one dimensional. It may just be due to the brevity of your descriptions but you do not seem to allow for much in the way of nuances. Would it be possible that Huge and Intimidating had a phobia for white haired dwarves? Could Suave and Charming guy be tongue-tied by effeminate young boys? Where is this diversity you speak of? Are there a legion of Dark and Imposing guys distinguishable only by the designer label on their cape? It is not enough to separate the different archetypes you need to separate the similar ones too.

Expect the impossible and you will usually be disappointed.

* prolix coughs up a hairball

[Under the moon]

Let's take a look at the ridiculousness of charisma itself. Charisma is NOT a constant. It is how others see you. You may have high charisma with one person, yet the guy next to him will think you are a complete fool. Yet the charisma stat treats them both the same when it comes to spells. That is godmoding MY character into say I see you as a charismatic person.

Now you are just being ignorant. Try to read everything someone says before you make inane comments.

[Garile]

hmm personally I think that quote looks at charisma the wrong way.

I think charisma should show how much you can influence someone from there normal reaction. If for example you are a bandit and you meet up with a guard who knows you are a bandit I think you'll have to be veeeeeery charismatic to the impossible to win him over to the extant that he wont arest you, but the charisma may influence how he arrests you.

If you have a high charisma he may care for the fact that you have a family and although he arrests you he may give you the chance to not let your kids see you taken away as you often see in the movies or you might hae such a low charima that the guard doesn't care at all and cuffs you infront of your kids and drags you away.

Charisma is only how much you can infuence someone, but it doesn't change the starting point. It doesn't change the values someone has and it isn't a magical switch. that is why factions is a great addition to charisma I think becuase factions would show how an NPC would normally react and your charisma score can minimize the damage or enlarge the positive.

Obviously player versus player these scores are hard to implement, just like in D&D you have skills like Bluff you can't automaticly use against other players characters leaving playercharacters a lot more room on how to act depending on the DM ofcourse.

Problem is ofcourse here we have so many playercharacters instead of the only 4/5 that D&D useally has. It gives one the feeling pretty fast of an underused skill. Obviously that is kinda easy to say if nothing has been implemented yet.

[Prolix]

I read every word of this thread. Repeating yourself will not help especially when you are repeating your misunderstanding. Charisma cannot be how others see you because then it would be a quality of them. It is a quality that you possess, how others react to it has nothing to do with you. You have charisma, someone else reacts positively, negatively or neutrally to your charisma. Their reactions differ, your quality does not, as such. It may be that you have control of your charisma turning it on when needed or off when you want to offend or you may be less sophisticated and it remains at whatever level it has constantly or it may be erratic and varies with your mood.

Have fun grinding to get charisma.

This would seem to be the most significant thing you have said in the thread. From it I infer that it is not Charisma, per se, that you object to but rather the whole leveling system, a.k.a grinding, and you think charisma is the low hanging fruit from which to begin your attack.  I am surely reading more into it than you intended but I believe it is a valid inference nonetheless.

[Under the moon]

Charima is equal on both sides. It is eqaul parts observer and observed. As I have siad before, a person alone has no charisma at all. You have no one to affect. You can not seem to grasp this concept. I have no misunderstanding.

Charisma is the meshing of two personalities to produce a reaction in both people, whatever those reactions may be. It can not be one set number. There are too many variations on how two personalities will mesh. The system treats all personalties as if they are the same. You have a CHA stat of 120. That means every single NPC is going to react the same to that stat. Every single spell is going to react exactly the same to that stat. It does not matter what type of charismatic personality you have, whether you are a nice guy or nasty.

Your understanding of my examples is simplistic in nature. You do not agree with me. However, those who do have a deeper understanding do agree with me.

And no, you are very wrong once again in judging me. You could not be futher off base. I do not care about grinding or training in this case. I care about things that are meant to affect my roleplay and gameplay. If someone has the ability to cast a 'high charisma' spell on me, they had better be able to back that stat up with some roleplay abilities. And with the high levels you can grind to without having to have any RP skills at all, I have serious doubts this will happen. If not, then there is a serious problem.

[Prolix]

Charima is equal on both sides. It is eqaul parts observer and observed. As I have siad before, a person alone has no charisma at all. You have no one to affect. You can not seem to grasp this concept. I have no misunderstanding.

That is just wrong. Even if I accepted the argument that it takes an observer and an observed which I do not the observer cannot help but observe himself unless he is completely sensory deprived. Even then he cannot help but experience himself unless he is brain dead in which case he hardly counts. Some people like themselves, others do not. Do you like yourself? Why?

No, charisma exists regardless of outside considerations. You are mistaking the perception of charisma with charisma itself. This is not a zen riddle, this tree makes noise.

Charisma is the meshing of two personalities to produce a reaction in both people, whatever those reactions may be. It can not be one set number. There are too many variations on how two personalities will mesh. The system treats all personalties as if they are the same. You have a CHA stat of 120. That means every single NPC is going to react the same to that stat. Every single spell is going to react exactly the same to that stat. It does not matter what type of charismatic personality you have, whether you are a nice guy or nasty.

The number that is applied to the charisma stat is the relative strength of the characteristic just like all the other stats. It does not give any indication as to the nature -- pleasing or perilous. The npcs cannot determine whether you are witty and gay or dark and brooding, the number gives them an indication of how much consideration they should give to you. There certainly are other factors that come into play in their determinations such as your beloved factions but of themselves they do not complete the picture.

Your understanding of my examples is simplistic in nature. You do not agree with me. However, those who do have a deeper understanding do agree with me.

Perhaps it was your examples that were overly simplistic.

And no, you are very wrong once again in judging me. You could not be futher off base. I do not care about grinding or training in this case. I care about things that are meant to affect my roleplay and gameplay. If someone has the ability to cast a 'high charisma' spell on me, they had better be able to back that stat up with some roleplay abilities. And with the high levels you can grind to without having to have any RP skills at all, I have serious doubts this will happen. If not, then there is a serious problem.

You do not care about training so it is expendable. Training is part of the game play, there is no system that allows you to specify anything that the game provides a mechanism for and it will only get more mechanisms added in the future. There will be less that you can fudge. If you are role playing that you have abilities that mechanisms are provided for without using those mechanisms you are in effect cheating. If you can cast a high level spell of any sort on me without even an actual glyph or even any system derived skill in that particular way then you are causing a serious problem. Are you going to role play that you did buddies quest that got you that phantom glyph that you are using to cast that spell or are you just going to "find it on the ground" when no one is looking? In either case you have no business casting that spell when the mechanics say you cannot.

Someone cannot cast an offensive high charisma spell on you unless you accept a challenge so if you automatically accept challenges you might want to reconsider. I would consider any spell that would cause you to lose control of your character as offensive and cannot at the moment think of a charm spell that could be cast upon you without your consent.

It appears to me that those who agree with you think PS is "A Night at the Improv" and not a role playing game.

If you are only role playing with others that think as you why do you care what the numbers are? The ones you can see are not the ones that you play in any event. Surely if you plan on ignoring any system that does not conform to your preconceptions you can ignore charisma. Just pretend it does not exist.

Perhaps I am misjudging you somewhat and you actually do level your characters. I cannot say for sure, I'll accept it if you confirm it. Your position leads me to think you generally do not. If you do then some of the things I say may be more off base than I think.

[Garile]

I agree somwhat with Moon to the exent that the charisma can only be "measured" if two people meet, but that doesn't mean charisma only exists when two people meet.

Charisma in my book shows the ability of someone to have other people act differently then normal in your favor using your own behavior. Obviously the stat itself can not really encompas everything, but then again just as with all stats it is several things grouped together.

But then again why would every NPC react the same? Charisma may have more influence on a NPCcharacter that has a weak personality then on a NPC that has a strong personality. And who knows perhaps there will even be a randomness factor in the system so you wont even get the same reaction with the same charisma symbolizing you are having a bad day or perhaps a very good day.

Then you have factions that show what the normal reaction to you would be around and you have a system that isn't to unrealistic.

I think the main question here is how much you want RL to dictate your character. obviously interacting with people you will be limited to what you yourself are able to think of, but shouldn't your character be able to do things and think of things you yourself may never think of?

Do you want to limit charismatic people to people who first did an charismatictest OOC?

That isn't really in the spirit of RP in my book where you want to play a character that ISN'T you.

One should find ways to work around the limitations RL throw up not make the game so RL stuff influences it as much as possible. I don't want to play myself ingame and I am guessing neither would you.

A good roleplayer will only level things that he thinks he can back up in roleplays. And if someone casts a spell on you in roleplays that asks for a high charisma and a glyph nd he has both gamemchanicwise, but you feel he isn't charismatic at all you will have to deal with it really. Someone with a high charisma can be an ass and can have bad days. Someone with high charisma isn't someone with a halo on top or a magicaura that magicly changes peoples reactions.

I do see your point Moon, but I really feel you are overreacting to the thought of someone coming up to you flashing their stat at you and evily saying "LIKE ME"

That isn't how charisma works in RL and I would laugh at anyone trying to do that ingame.