Almost no weapons anymore at Trasoks and others: Probably the worst idea ever

[Mrokii]

Hi all,

I have been playing this game for quite some time and while I appreciate the effort of all the people behind it, I think limiting the weapons stock on all shops is the worst thing ever invented in this game. Even more than the annoying introduction system. I hate both.

Someone told me that the reason behind the weapon-limitation was to improve relationship between players. Ha! I can nothing but laugh about that! If that really was your plan behind it, I think you screwed up big time (imho). And no, I won't apologize for it, because I rellay think you did. And I will tell you why:

1. For newbies the game was hard enough at start upto now. They had to kill rats for quite some time to have enough Tria to buy better weapons. And now they even have to do that for a longer time because they can't buy cheap daggers anymore! Great work, really. And even worse, when they have enough money they can't choose anything but one weapon! Wow! That is a *very* realistic way of doing business in a shop.

2. About "improving relationship" or communication between players: The only thing this limitation leads to is that, instead of just buying a weapon one likes to use, he or she has to find someone who crafts weapons and sells them. That *might* lead to roleplay, yes. But upto now most of the people I met who sell crafted weapons wanted me to buy weapons with ridiculous quality for an equally ridiculous amount of Tria. And even if there were others. Why should I go around looking for a crafter? The shops are there to sell things like that, imho! I go to a crafter if I want to buy a special weapon, but not if I just want to buy a usual one. And what about the newbies. Do you expect them to go around for hours until they may or may not find a crafter? I am sure they will love that...

3. It defeats roleplay, because now, instead of just buying the weapon that I want to have for a realistic price in a shop (which is fast), I have to invest countless hours to dig Platinum or Gold just to have enough money to buy a weapon (If I don't want the standard one, that is). Wouldn't it be better if I could invest that time into roleplay? And the next thing is that I will have to try and find someone who crafts them. Or I have to do it myself. And this leads me to my next point.

4. On one hand you talk about "individuality" in Planeshift and how every player should develop a unique personality. But on the other hand you do nothing at all to reward those that do. Even worse, for the reasons I stated above, I think you force players to be generalists that are good at everything at the same time! One should be good at digging to get Tria, have to be a good fighter too (to get some experience points now and then) and now one should also invest precious time into crafting! Ha! So much for individuality!

I mean, why should one concentrate on becoming a great wizard for example, if there is no benefit at all? Or what if one wants to become a barbarian but instead of fighting he is also forced to become a miner or a crafter just because there is no other way to get enough Tria or good weapons? I am sorry, but I think Planeshift has never rewarded or at least supported ones wish to specialize in one area.

I have heard complaints now and then about players that do nothing but dig for Gold or Platinum. Well, I would say for the most part this is the fault of the game itself, because there are not many other ways to get enough money for good armor and weapons. And you guys made it even worse now, thank you very much. A few more of this "improvements" and I will be gone because it gets more and more frustrating and boring to play.

[Suno_Regin]

Though you have an over reactive intensity in your post, I agree with a lot of your points. Just throwing that out there...now prepare to be flamed, I hate to say.

[Xillix Queen of Fools]

Well there will be no flaming.

Remember every player will begin with the weapon of their choice for going through the tutorial.

Crafters who are not as good will certainly be charging less over time and the economy will adjust.

Most of the arguments forwarded lack any consideration for the crafters, let's hear from them.

[Waylander]

Yeah, somewhat implied in Xillix's post but not directly addressed is the fact that this opens up the market for low level crafters.  Where before low leveled crafters would need another source of income, now they can sell to low leveled characters (who would otherwise have gone to trasoks.)

It'll take some adjusting but, I believe it's a step in the right direction.

[Dihenis]

It takes a bit to adjust to not being able to buy weapons, but you'll get used to it. And anyway, it encourages RP and low-level crafters (like me).

It also starts a drive toward a more player-based economy, which I've seen some arguements for on these forums. The only reason people mine and fight and now as you say, will craft, is because they want to advance through the levels, generally as fast as they can. Its perfectly possible to be just a fighter, or just a miner. You're rewards don't have to be seen as numbers. Planning roleplay events is fun and rewarding for all who are in it, even though it negatively impacts those numbers, like tria.

Buying weapons might even be less expensive now, it depends on the crafter. A nice crafter might even give away their blades to a newbie for free. And not all crafted blades are Q300/300, the only reason there were such high grade player-made weapons was because they were the only type of weapon worth selling

[Seneche]

I agree with you in the sense that it could fail, and lead to a more divided community, but I think that will only happen in those that are not into role playing, or just not into dedicated playing in general. A need for money and weapons will result in coordination of people, perhaps they get together to go mine some ore for a new weapon, and become friends. Or even just get together to split money, craft, make money, etc. This in turn, may result in a much less solo community. By merchants not selling many weapons, we are forced to rely on the players. This will give everyone a fair shot at making a good sale. You gave the example of, why be a great wizard if it were pointless? Well, before the update, why try to be a crafter, if you would be out done by even the simplest NPC merchants, let alone the great player crafter? I personally think that, as everyone said, it will lead to a more player dependent economy, which will add more role playing value, since you won't be relying on NPCs all day. Either way, the game is obviously still in early development, and I don't take anything as being permanent until the final release, so if an update is visibly ruining the game, I'm sure it will be removed or altered in the next update. I have not seen anything negative occur because of this, so as far as I am concerned, any attempt at a more player dependent game is worth the try. My only compliant is that it is hard to earn money without some skills, but that only makes it slow to get going, not difficult.

[Waylander]

The first three points I disagree with.  Lower level crafters will sell lowel level weapons for lower prices.  Probably much lower.

4. On one hand you talk about "individuality" in Planeshift and how every player should develop a unique personality. But on the other hand you do nothing at all to reward those that do. Even worse, for the reasons I stated above, I think you force players to be generalists that are good at everything at the same time! One should be good at digging to get Tria, have to be a good fighter too (to get some experience points now and then) and now one should also invest precious time into crafting! Ha! So much for individuality!

I mean, why should one concentrate on becoming a great wizard for example, if there is no benefit at all? Or what if one wants to become a barbarian but instead of fighting he is also forced to become a miner or a crafter just because there is no other way to get enough Tria or good weapons? I am sorry, but I think Planeshift has never rewarded or at least supported ones wish to specialize in one area.

I have heard complaints now and then about players that do nothing but dig for Gold or Platinum. Well, I would say for the most part this is the fault of the game itself, because there are not many other ways to get enough money for good armor and weapons. And you guys made it even worse now, thank you very much. A few more of this "improvements" and I will be gone because it gets more and more frustrating and boring to play.

This is an interesting point and one that I agree with to an extent.  I do not believe the Devs can do much about it, yet, and it's not their fault.

Now, with that out of the way.  The problem here seems to be that fighting will deliver too much exp and not enough tria - Mining will deliver too much tria but not enough exp and now, crafting may be needed for low levels to have weapons (Something I doubt).  The first two parts though, hold quite a bit of weight.

Seeing as people will always go for the path of least resistance, you'll almost always find that powerful warriors have mined in their past.

It's really a doozy.  Unless you make mining even less fun (take much longer to get gold/platinum) or somewhat unrealistic (every valuable resource require high levels)  - the only time when it'll be less 'fight for exp, mine for tria' is when finding mines becomes hard or, mines get depleted.

Discuss!

[Wren]

If I can make a suggestion . . .

Maybe, at least for the period it will take for the in-game economy to adjust (namely, for crafters specializing in low-level weapons to start making their mark) have one basic dagger, one basic sword, and one basic hammer available from different merchants?   So if no one's available to sell you a, say, dagger, or the only PC merchant you've found is charging a ridiculous price, you can scrap convenience for economy and make the long haul to Ojaveda to buy a dagger from Trasok, or haul up to Taemian for a basic hammer, or whatever.   I doubt it would hurt crafters too much, since most people would probably choose the more convenient, if probably slightly more expensive option (I know I would), but it would give non-crafter players a little bit of a choice.

[Prolix]

If you want a cheap normal weapon you could always hang around the arena and ask some of the people training there to sell you something. I am pretty sure most bladed weapons can still be looted there and if you ask nicely at the smith there, someone will sell you one. It is probably not a good idea to bother people while they are occupied. If you want a bludgeoning weapon you can make the trek to the BD, there is a fellow there that has a selection for sale. You could train melee until you are strong enough to fight the sentient mobs yourself.

[Zan]

The Dark Empire is already making plans to sell regular looted weaponry at cheap prices, very similar to the NPC prices. This will all take some time to get set up properly but it's coming ... and I hope other initiatives like this will join in.

[peeg]

Talking about a working economy: A problem is that at the moment "useless" materials like gold or platinum pay far too good.
No miner goes for iron or coal to satisfy the demand of metallurgists - which results in high prices for steel  and therefore even higher prices for crafted blades. A new player simply can't afford a basic crafted short sword without hunting rats for weeks. No fun.
The smiths, on the other hand, can't sell their crafts for a decent price because they had to pay too much for the steel they used. No fun.

There's no money circuit at all. Miners and high-level metallurgists make huge amounts of money out of nothing and -at the moment- the system encourages them to do so. 

[Piker]

I have a merchant character who sells weapons and glyphs regularly.

When i first discovered the limited availability of weapons from npc's, i thought it was great. I stocked up on low level looted weapons and even made a deal with a crafter to provide lower specification crafties. However the sad fact is i have not been asked once for any of the basic weapons, players still want the best they can get. I still sell plenty weapons, but the vast majority are high specification weapons.

So from what i've experienced there is little demand for these weapons sadly. I will continue to hold a small stock of them however Just in case.

[Waylander]

The market will be going up as time goes on.  Right now everybody has their weapons from CB

[Mrokii]

If I can make a suggestion . . .

Maybe, at least for the period it will take for the in-game economy to adjust (namely, for crafters specializing in low-level weapons to start making their mark) have one basic dagger, one basic sword, and one basic hammer available from different merchants?

That is the best idea I have seen so far on this matter. Others said thait an economy will develop, but it is also stated that this may take some time. And it isn't the biggest problem (imho). The biggest problem is reliability. With the last version I could be sure I would get a certain weapon at a certain place if I desperately needed it. Now, even if there were some kind of economy, I couldn't rely on that. Even if there were enough Crafters, how should I know about them?

If the new system should be a success, crafters (or guilds, better) have to be able to buy a shop and can guarantee that there is always somebody in there, so I can get a weapon if I need one. As long as they only can sell their weapons on the street, it won't be much fun as you can never be sure when, where or even if you can find a weapon to buy.

[Wren]

I have a merchant character who sells weapons and glyphs regularly.

When i first discovered the limited availability of weapons from npc's, i thought it was great. I stocked up on low level looted weapons and even made a deal with a crafter to provide lower specification crafties. However the sad fact is i have not been asked once for any of the basic weapons, players still want the best they can get. I still sell plenty weapons, but the vast majority are high specification weapons.

So from what i've experienced there is little demand for these weapons sadly. I will continue to hold a small stock of them however Just in case.

I have a small suggestion for this issue, too.  (I'm just full of ideas today!   )   Maybe we can have a stickied thread devoted purely to in-game advertisements from crafters?   There are already the in-game message threads for Oja and Hydlaa, I know, but I kind of figure we should make this as easy for people as we can, and have one central place to advertise goods.   It'd have the added benefit of letting people shop around for the cheapest prices - y'know, like they would in reality  - which would help with the inflation that we've got going on.   This way people will at least know who to be looking around for.

EDIT: And I just realized I failed to mention why your comment brought that to mind for me - I think the problem so far is that the people who would be buying basic weapons, namely newbies, probably don't have much idea of who to ask.   It would be helpful if they were able to see a list of merchants who will sell them basic daggers and whatnot.