Author Topic: Gugrontid Blockade  (Read 9952 times)

Mordraugion

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Re: Gugrontid Blockade
« Reply #45 on: March 26, 2008, 08:48:32 am »
Okies last point then I'm going to lock this if you have anything valid to add pm me
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[19:07] <GM> News to me, starts cleaning guard uniform.
seems to me to be an attempt at humour not an "I'm logging in now to ban your a**e" statement
No longer a member of the PlanShift Development Team
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PS is not a democracy, nor will it ever be -- Karyuu 2006
http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=21049.msg230947#msg230947

Leama

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Izzabella and our PS community
« Reply #46 on: March 26, 2008, 12:35:27 pm »
I have always admired the passion of the family that plays Planeshift. The arguments here in the forums are very entertaining to say the least.

Yet this situation has greatly bothered me. As a role player I was glad to see the someone had the guts to make a grand role play event, especially now when the game is so hard to play with introduction system being so quirky.

In the traditional PS way there was much to do over it. Arguing over it, taking sides, and just voicing all your opinions. I think we have something to learn here from Zorbels. She gave us ideas of how to improve an event like this rather then complain about it. Let us learn from that.

Now to address one other point of personal interest to me; Izzabella.  To be fair she is my friend. I care very deeply for her and thank her for all the time she has been there for me when I needed her. As far as I am concerned, she should be applauded for doing this event. I am sure it was not easy. Knowing her as I do she just wanted everyone to have fun. Instead of berating her I think we should thank her for trying to do something that she wanted all of you to enjoy.

To conclude I wish to thank Zorbels for her wise post here and I hope everyone understands what she is trying to tell us. Mostly I want to say to Izzie that I think you are a wonderful person. You again show how you put yourself second to others and how much you care. Izzabella I am honored to be your friend. You did a great job here and I for one admire your role play abilities. You might be one of the greatest role players that PS has ever had. Keep up the good work. Thank you.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2008, 04:24:40 pm by Leama »
Life is lived forwards, but understood backwards.

neko kyouran

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Re: Gugrontid Blockade
« Reply #47 on: March 26, 2008, 03:23:00 pm »
merged topics, and will unlock, as I don't see this thread having cause for locking just yet, and I'm interested to see responses for zorby's post, as i think it will do good to have those thoughts discussed and worked out and learned from for when future events are being planned.

life is one big learning experience.  what doesn't kill you, only makes you stronger, so to say.  :)

Jonerian

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Re: Gugrontid Blockade
« Reply #48 on: March 26, 2008, 03:52:22 pm »
Well, I was not involved in the event but here are my ideas about this:

Having events like that is important for an interesting experience with the game.
They should be organized appropriateley and with the help of officials. This would inlcude sombody playing NPC guards, creating chars (and possibly building stats) just for the event of which some get punished and are not used for a while afterwards. If they were specifically made and the stats were set directly for the event (no month of leveling) then it wouldn't be a problem to let them disappear again. Just like creating monsters, only that they are controlled by persons.

I don't know exactly, but I think this is tecnically already possible. I mean there are already events, but for such big events one problem might be, that we don't have enough GM or trustworthy people to steer these created bandit chars.

Doing these events with a char you invested quite some time and then trying to play with it as a main char afterwards is difficult. Yes, you have outlaws in real life, but the really bad ones normally get caught after some time.


This is no real complaint about Izzy or something, rather how I would like big events like that to be handled eventually. You can't just do things like as player events because NPCs etc. have to be ACTIVELY involved.

Izzabella

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Re: Gugrontid Blockade
« Reply #49 on: March 26, 2008, 04:03:49 pm »
Thanks Leama. that was sweet, and I am far from the best role player PS has ever had :P

Zorbels thanks for your positive post as well, you make several good points.

Okay first off The GM's don't have time to get involved every time  a player decided to start a big event... and they can't pick and choose who's to get involved with because that's favoritisms. This was a player event designed to spark RP and get the players involved in the punishment, and I am not going anywhere near any guards anytime soon, I am not stupid ;)

Secondly flame me, I don't care, I am not going anywhere ;) and if I Have to take the fall for this and move into the roads so that the rest of the people involved can continue to play and enjoy the game, so be it.

Dajoji

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Re: Gugrontid Blockade
« Reply #50 on: March 26, 2008, 04:20:03 pm »
Good post Zorbels. As usual, you make a very good point. Ok, I'll try to answer some of your questions (I had little to add or comment on the ones not quoted since your suggestions are pretty clear).

(1) What can we do better in these events to distribute information to new players that may join the event that might be well under way?
One thing I can think of for an event like this is to have people from both sides involved (the ones raiding the city and the ones defending it). Guild communication is a useful tool and posting a teaser thread in the in-game forums is a good way to catch the community's attention and post some ground rules.

(2) How can we get rid of the confusion that seems to accompany these events?
Whatever the situation, keep the main tab clean of OOC at all costs. Groupchat does wonders for this but also try to keep that channel clean as well. I've noticed some players like to chat while they RP making IC and OCC entries as the event progresses. There's nothing wrong with that (since mostly they do keep those OOC entries private or bracketed) but it can be confusing if you are managing a really big crowd with players joining in at different times. If the group was made for OOC coordinations, it's better to keep idle chatter away from it and even have a shortcut for the instructions. This means, planning is the most important thing to minimize chaos.

(3) What should and should not be done with the event? (killing gaurds, etc) Note: Might be best to figure this out before throwing the event.
Do not godmod. Do not assume that there is no government or no law because there is no way yet for them to react to player actions. Do not force other players into your RP. Do not write the whole script. Leave open ended scenarios so that there can bring surprises and players can actually feel that what they do is what defines the outcome (as it should be). People are not joining in to watch a movie or a play, but to get involved and affect the situation one way or another. Since that is a possibility, set your objectives so the outcomes do not end up being godmoddish (like, in the event that the raid on Gugrontid had succeeded, the city would have been lost and all players would have to RP that... which is obviously taking it too far). I know you intended to leave the city from the beginning, but you still gotta plan for a prize for the raiders should they win (maybe not taking over the city but stealing a stash of weapons or something kept in the city). Finally, always ask (a GM or a settings team member) if what you're planning to do might go against settings or game policies.

(5) What is the best form of communication for this event?
Forum thread. Allows preparation, feedback, summaries, etc. Many players do not check the forums and events are a good way to direct them here. There is valuable information here that all players should be aware of. And for those who do not like forums or forum communities, you can always only read or post in the sections of your interest.

(6) What are the rules that should be followed in this event? (Would be a good idea to post them a week before the event if possible)
Set them up. Test them. Correct them. Communicate them. Think about how players can join, how the event is supposed to affect them and what kind of reactions you expect from them. Give them options to react in a way that suits their character's personality/history and make it easy for them to learn the ground rules for PvP and RP (such as if they are supposed to RP traps have set around, etc.). The rules you set up have to allow the event to unfold naturally, that is making it possible for any side to win so nobody feels they joined the losing side. Have a rehearsal, spot potential problems and plan ahead.

(7) Who is in charge of the event? (If there are several people in charge then it would be best to communicate their positions in the event and what they are in charge of. Having everyone doing the same job may cause confusion and conflict if it is not agreed on before the event, thus making the event look poorly planned)
For an event like this, someone in charge of the raiders, someone in charge of the defenders and who takes over in case of absence. Always be aware of who's the current group leader. Make sure the first to join the group are those who are behind the event so that if the leader crashes, the next player in line has an idea what to do and how to handle the invites.


Finally, GMs do not get involved with the execution of any player events but we can certainly give our point of view since running events is one of the things we're here for. PMs, or a visit to #planeshift-gmtalk on IRC will do. And when it comes to plots, the settings team has the final word on what players should be allowed to RP.


Izzabella

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Re: Gugrontid Blockade
« Reply #51 on: March 26, 2008, 04:26:29 pm »
I would like to point out that we did do this. Duraza talked to Xillix first and asked if this was passable and our catch was we had to lose and be run out of town. which we did.

neko kyouran

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Re: Gugrontid Blockade
« Reply #52 on: March 26, 2008, 04:27:09 pm »
Secondly flame me, I don't care, I am not going anywhere ;) and if I Have to take the fall for this and move into the roads so that the rest of the people involved can continue to play and enjoy the game, so be it.

I'll remove any flamey posts made, soooo that isn't an option, publicly at least. 

i unlocked the thread for people to make constructive posts :)

Orgonwukh

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Re: Gugrontid Blockade
« Reply #53 on: March 26, 2008, 06:17:47 pm »
3 You broke some high laws, expect there to be a not so pleasant outcome. [So now role play within the setting]
4 GMs do not get involved in player events.

Okay, this is why I asked this:
- Who is the judge?
- Is there a court?
- Is there a jury?
- Has a suspect an advocate?
- Who is the executive?
- What punisments are given for breaking laws that don't specify the punishment (some say only that it is illegal)?
- What age is the threshold between child and adult?
- Is banishment forever? If not, how is the time period determined?
- Where do you report crimes?
- What is necessary to sentence somone? Does 'in dubio pro reo' count?

For the sake of realism, a short sketch of how a criminal is punished in RL (feel free to correct me for deviances in RL and PS):
1. A person commits a crime.
2. Someone observes the person committing a crime (not necessarily recognising the person's identity).
3. Someone reports the crime (and maybe a person) to the executive.
4. The executive identifies and probably imprisons (not necessarily the correct) suspects.
5. The executive starts investigating the crime and collects (not necessarily all) evidence.
6. When enough evidence is gathered, the executive gives all evidence to the judiciary.
7. The judiciary decides if the suspect is guilty by looking at the evidence.
8. The suspect is convicted if the evidence is sufficient.
9. If the suspect is found guilty, the suspect is punished.

How do we roleplay this? In the case of Izzabella, she roleplayed it without steps 3. to 8. and finally punished herself for the crime by banishment (because it is a low law she broke, stop speaking about pearma-death, btw).
I think noone can expect this kind of roleplay from us. No player would break a high law anymore, because you instantly would have to delete your char.
And I repeat: I don't want to complain. I expect some answers from GMs and settings team, because we Outlaws leader really want and have to know how to roleplay the consequences of crime.


Elvicat

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Re: Gugrontid Blockade
« Reply #54 on: March 26, 2008, 08:18:06 pm »
(1) What can we do better in these events to distribute information to new players that may join the event that might be well under way?
Quote
One thing I can think of for an event like this is to have people from both sides involved (the ones raiding the city and the ones defending it). Guild communication is a useful tool and posting a teaser thread in the in-game forums is a good way to catch the community's attention and post some ground rules.

this somehow made me think of a old war rp we had back in the days that worked pretty much the whole time :)
here's a link to it if anyone want to look or want to remember the "good" old days ;)
maybe it can even be used as a guide in the future.

http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=26159.0


Izzabella

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Re: Gugrontid Blockade
« Reply #55 on: March 26, 2008, 08:30:09 pm »
Yes Elvi but I'm learning you can't stat a war, the Otchard would have stopped that.

But yes it looks like it was well planned out in advance, I think we did not post anything here cause we wanted to keep it as IC as possible and did not want people showing up OOC'ly as they did. I had chars standing around in a huge group saying lets flight! but they had NO ic reason to be there seeing as nothing had started IC'ly ;) However I do know some were there because they were told IC'y something was going to go down..but those one were waiting around quietly for something to happen first before they took action.

neko kyouran

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Dajoji

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Re: Gugrontid Blockade
« Reply #57 on: March 26, 2008, 11:05:37 pm »
- Who is the judge?
- Is there a court?
- Is there a jury?
- Has a suspect an advocate?
- Who is the executive?
- What punisments are given for breaking laws that don't specify the punishment (some say only that it is illegal)?
- What age is the threshold between child and adult?
- Is banishment forever? If not, how is the time period determined?
- Where do you report crimes?
- What is necessary to sentence somone? Does 'in dubio pro reo' count?

From the Ortarchal Decree:

Quote
Hand of the Law

I.
When issues of legal contention arise it shall fall upon the guards or the nearest military office to settle such disputes. When the dispute requires justice, such as disagreements over land, possessions, or other serious issues, they shall fall under the jurisdiction of the Vigesimi.


II.
The execution of these laws is to be handled by the authority of the Vigesimi in charge of each town or region. The Octarch of each level shall be the final arbiter of justice for his or her sovereign lands. Preservation of the Octarchy means the preservation of all living sentient beings under its reign. The Octarchal decree shall be followed by all who wish shelter within Octarchal borders.

This doesn't answer all your questions but remember that despite their importance, the settings team has a LOT to do and some things have to be done first. Your questions at this point would get the same answer as asking "How does alchemy work?" or "How do I use the backstabbing skill?". They are all valid but the answer is that it may be a while before they are implemented in-game. And don't think there's no interest in it, it's just that there are priorities, and they are set in part based on what the community wants. Remember this poll?

Nobody will have to delete their character if they didn't break any game rules, and even if they did, it would have to be an extreme case to take such harsh action. Breaking IC laws is meaningless when it comes to enforcing game policies. It's only RP and we encourage it. We would never punish you for roleplaying properly.

So yes, there are gaps in the settings and lots of things to do before the game is complete. That's not new. My advice is try to work your plots around those gaps and use whatever info is already available, using common sense and specific queries to settings or GMs to fill in the rest. We might not be able to answer ALL your questions but maybe put some thought into little bits you can nibble on while the rest is cooking. Just be patient.


CrazyYlian

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Re: Gugrontid Blockade
« Reply #58 on: March 27, 2008, 01:20:23 am »
First, I want to state that despite all the problems with this event, I had a blast!   I seldom see anything in-game that can keep more than 3-4 people at a time occupied for more than a few minutes, so this was quite entertaining, kinda like the carnival coming to town.  Whether it worked "correctly" or not, I would hope that there are in the future other attempts to involve people on this scale.  Practice makes perfect.

On to the constructive...

(1) What can we do better in these events to distribute information to new players that may join the event that might be well under way?
(5) What is the best form of communication for this event?

These two go hand in hand IMO.  My RP background is largely based in real-time, spontaneously evolving events (I do renfairs where maybe five of us are coordinating 20-30 passer-bys) and getting the story disseminated to newcomers on the fly is critical.  I think the chats are the best way, because it allows a chain of command; i.e. the event originators are using say guild chat, but each guildie forms a group of non-guildies and clues them through group chat.  If the group gets too large, divide and form a new one, with group leader being up to speed and in touch with other group leaders.  Newcomers dropping by can be quickly incorporated and brought up to speed (and if they don't like what they see, they are free to leave).  Most importantly, it keeps all the workings out of main.

Unfortunately, the current situation with introductions and unknown/someones makes this difficult.

(2) How can we get rid of the confusion that seems to accompany these events?

Keeping all the workings out of main...  main should reflect what is happening ICly, since that is your progress bar...  when main gets full of gibberish, confusion is the only possible outcome.


(7) Who is in charge of the event? (If there are several people in charge then it would be best to communicate their positions in the event and what they are in charge of. Having everyone doing the same job may cause confusion and conflict if it is not agreed on before the event, thus making the event look poorly planned)

This is where the chain of command has to be laid out before the event starts.  And someone will HAVE to volunteer to take the probably less fun parts of leading the groups.  They will likely miss some of the action because of this, but if you don't have someone doing it your event will likely disintegrate quickly.

And as you probably note, none of these work without PLANNING.  Think out all the likely outcomes, diversions, sabotage (yes, people will deliberately try to be jerks just because they like being disruptive), etc, and have your responses planned out as well.  You will never think of everything, but every bump that is negotiated smoothly leaves you more freedom to focus on the ones you didn't forsee, and deal with them on the fly.

*edit*

Ok, got interrupted before...

So to tie what I said above to the gurgontid event;

chain of command - this event was top heavy (not critisizing, just observing).  There were, as near as I could tell, only about three people trying to direct everything.  As a primary organizer and also a central figure in the RP, Izzy had far too much on her plate that could have been delegated...  When we do a renfair event, even though there might be 5-6 of us conducting the action, to an observer only a couple of us are visible. The rest are making sure the RP keeps moving, dealing with hecklers, organizing (inciting?) the crowd, directing traffic, etc, all while blending into the background.  When the RPers have to do it all, the pace gets slowed and the even starts to break down.  Ideally it should be more like, Izzy works out a general outline of how her side of the event is to unfold with an assistant, then she just plays her part while the assistant, through chat, directs the (evil) gang as needed.  Likewise for her (good) counterpart.  That way the main window shows a consistent progression of the storyline, so everyone knows what is going on, and they can refer to their group window for more specific instructions as the event unfolds.

I think lack of that coordination was a big issue here, because it was impossible to tell from main what was happening.  Even those who knew in advance about it were confused, and those who just came along without prior knowledge were completely lost.  I even at one point tried to form a group with several who came along so I could clue them in, but without something in main I could point to for reference, it fell apart quickly.

I was pleasantly surprised by the number of passer-bys who really wanted to join in (and not just the handful who were simply looking for a PVPfest), so I think it was a good idea, but it got too big and lost control.  Nothing that couldn't be fixed with a little more planning and organisation.
 
« Last Edit: March 27, 2008, 01:27:24 pm by neko kyouran »

Mordaan

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Re: Gugrontid Blockade
« Reply #59 on: March 27, 2008, 04:06:50 pm »
It's a tough call.  You want to attract as many people as possible so they don't feel they've been left out.  One of the most frustrating parts of events is it seems like it's mostly luck...you just have to be in the right place at the right time...which I rarely seem to be.   :P   I was happy I heard "something" was going to happen so I could finally get in on something.  But the down side is, when you have that many people expecting something, a lot will jump the gun.  You are always going to have your share of hecklers, spammers, and wisecrackers.  I just don't think there's any way around that, unless you have a GM muting everyone.  I think the suggestion that was made of going and doing something as if people just happened to be in town was a good one.  That's all that could have been done.  Whether or not they listened is another story.

Even if it had it's share of problems and maybe didn't work as well as planned, I applaud the attempt.  Yes, it's always better to have an event overseen/run by GMs but players should be able to do this on their own too.

Yes Elvi but I'm learning you can't stat a war, the Otchard would have stopped that.

But yes it looks like it was well planned out in advance, I think we did not post anything here cause we wanted to keep it as IC as possible and did not want people showing up OOC'ly as they did. I had chars standing around in a huge group saying lets flight! but they had NO ic reason to be there seeing as nothing had started IC'ly ;) However I do know some were there because they were told IC'y something was going to go down..but those one were waiting around quietly for something to happen first before they took action.
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