Attn: Elemental Light Guildhall raid confirmed [OOC]

[Donari Tyndale]

It seems your behaviour was roleplay wise correct. So feel free to use /ignore on the idiots that think they can harass you OOCly.

[Waylander]

_{Those known to be involved will be dealt with at a time of our choosing. This is regarded as an IC admission of guilt.}

To be honest, even if EL members were standing there shouting at them while they were stealing the loot (I know this didn't happen), what they did still would have been better than what I quoted

I don't see anything wrong with what they did.  There are a few things that you can argue (EL members sleeping in the guild house, NPCs noticing and whatnot) but, there are those for every RP.  I saw let EL, Outlaws and ToY figure it out between them.

On a completely unrelated topic.
Izza: Don't you owe me tria for something... yeah

[Cyl]

*me cheers for the Thieves of Yliakum and the Outlaws*

Awesome move.

[Caarrie]

And no Caarie you other players can't make us perma dead for a RP.
epically with NO EVIDENCE!

It was just an EXAMPLE

Just one more example ....

[Dajoji]

Any act of harassment will be punished. Period.

That said, it disappoints me that you're not giving EL a chance to react IC. It's true that if they left their door open they were sort of "asking for it" and your actions were completely IC and coherent with your characters. However, this is the part in which you should ponder what kind of player you want to be: the kind whose RP is enjoyed by the community or the kind that takes advantage of loopholes and doesn't care if others are having fun. If someone is not having fun with your plot, then it's not working out. Someone is going to lose, but let that be the characters not the players.

Ok so saying that we should plan it first... So we are meant to say to EL. "Hi, we'd like to rob your guildhall for everything you have, when would be a good time to do it, when you have lots of guards around to make it nice and fair?"

Forgive me if you think i'm stupid... but I think thats pretty stupid :p

People don't even agree to be robbed for 1 circle. How in the hell are thieves meant to survive if we can't do somthing on the spurr of the moment without OOCly asking. in advance.... Thats just stupid. Ok if we killed someone yeah we'd probably arrange that with the person.

By not letting them react IC (discovering evidence at the crime scene, seeing some of their goods in the Ojaveda market or whatever) your are that guy who won't let the thief rob him a circle. Don't you see it's the same kind of "untouchable" attitude? It is not about who gets away with it but giving all players a chance for their characters to react to the situation.

first off there was NO ONE in the sector NO ONE Saw us.. we looked around.. not our fault thats not god modding that no one was there.

they left it unlocked. their fault we did IC what we would do IC

And no Caarie you other players can't make us perma dead for a RP.
epically with NO EVIDENCE!

Whatever you sold can go back to them if they are willing to find it. The fact that they were sold to NPCs and therefore OOCly untraceable is not relevant. They can ask the merchants if they saw the items. If they did, they can get a description from the person who had them. This is the part in which you share a few clues. If they can't figure it out IC, too bad for them, but throw them a bone. Don't kill your own RP by not letting others join in.

[Sen]

[...random things about stupidity...]

People don't even agree to be robbed for 1 circle. How in the hell are thieves meant to survive if we can't do somthing on the spurr of the moment without OOCly asking. in advance.... Thats just stupid. Ok if we killed someone yeah we'd probably arrange that with the person.

Also permadeath is not even an option so please no talk on that.

[...]

I was robbed several times. And not as the only one. I see the problem with being evil, but you risked to piss people off maybe even seriously - and I mean the people, not their chars. That's why I say you should speak with them before doing something like this.

I agree fully about all permadeath discussions to be dropped and especially not want to hear again such concerning Izzabella since last time was really bad enough.
And same for ooc challenges... whoever does this should stop it.

Sen

[Izzabella]

I would like to point out once again I contacted them Via PM saying if they wanted to fight over this or whatever and if they had talked to me we could have come up with an IC reason for them to pin us that was reasonable to everyone.

the did not respond instead they started sending me query's in ICR, ooc tells in game..ooc chat in main in the tavern telling me I was wrong I should feel bad I should be more mature I should give it back. and challenging me.

[zorbels]

In all fairness to Izzy she was trying to do right by the game and take advantage of the situation and RP out a robbing.

Izzy the reason you are getting so many angry responses in game from the other guild is this ....

Imagine for some wierd reason that your character somehow is on the server. You have gone to bed for the night in RL and think you have logged out. Something happens with your inventory and people are able to click on you and remove your belongings.  When you return the next day you find out that all of your belongings are gone and worst yet it was people who you roleplay with frequently that took it. Are you telling me that your not going to be upset and feel violated? Are you telling me that if your fellow roleplayers tell you it was all done IC that your just going to be ok with that?

This is how these people who you took from are probably feeling. Even if it was done IC that isn't going to make them feel any better. Obviously the people are angry OOC and feel cheated. This is what we need to concentrate on. How to make it better for both parties. Both IC and OOC. If either party is not willing to bend and try to rectify the problem then there will be hard feelings. Those issues will carry on and may complicate future RP's and relationships with these people in game.

So I guess the question should be "what do we do to make it so that both parties are satisfied and how can we in the future make it so issues like this don't come up again?"  


[Edit] Fixing the problem also takes the Elemental Light Guild taking part and working out the issue. It isn't all up to Izzy.

[kiaerulf]

I feel it is time for me to speak now as one of the "victims" ...

No, this has absolutely not been fun for us. We discovered the theft 18.12 GMT this sunday. When we did nobody had a clue on what was going on ... was it a RP or was it just somebody that just went there to get our stuff for the money. Yea, i petitioned a GM at that time, 'cus we had not been informed at all that we suddenly were a part of a RP. Noone in EL had a clue... until around 33 hours later we we find this thread on the forum. Honestly that makes me suspicious about your intentions with robbing our house - did you really do this for a RP and IC?

If you had contacted us (or at least one of us) in advance and agreeing on a set of terms I am quiet sure we would find a RP like this fun ... I think i would "accidentally" leave the GH open if i had knew ... but now ... no i don't think its fun to be taking hostage like this forced to do something and on terms you don't know. You could at least have left a clue in the note you left that this was a RP and also given a contact person which we could contact to agree on the further development... But honestly i feel we are past that stage ... 33 hours after are too late ...

I wonder how you can say so certain that it was one of our members that left the door unlocked. We have had this problem before where it turned out to be a bug ... I trust our members that they are capable of locking a door. Every one of us that have a kay have been instructed carefully in what to do and what not to do. I find it very unlikely ...

Regarding god modding: You are god modding big time by saying you got away clean and nobody saw you. Not even the NPCs just outside our door. There is noway you could have carried a big closet through Hydlaa without being noticed. Not to mention the people sleeping in the GH. We have around 100 members. Not everybody sleeps under the sky. I knwo at least 4 persons that were inside the GH. You really haven't left us with any options at all. That seriously bad RP'ing.

Izzabella: how can you jump conclusions like we don't have any use for our stuff? The swords in there definitely have a purpose. Also some members had emptied their inventory in there because we were going to have a guild event sunday night which required big loading capacity.

Yea true Izzabella: you pm Sihien a solution ... probably the only solution you wanted: a guild war and asking if we could agree on that. Again: not leaving us with many options.

Some questions you are requested to answer:
1. Do you intend to return our stuff?
2. Why did you wait at least 33 hours to inform us that you were doing a RP and we don't really have any option than to accept and follow the rules you have set?
3. You don't considering involving us in a RP like that without even asking one of us and set up a set of rules is god modding?
4. How can you claim we left our door open when we know it might as well be a bug? We instructs the members that have a kety for the GH carefully how to enter the house you know.
5. Do you think we find loosing all our stuff in the GH fun without knowing why it is gone and having no chance of knowing who did it?
6. wouldn't it have been possible to do this just by taking our furniture or some other unimportant stuff and leaving a note saying you have been robbed instead of ripping us completely taking stuff that there was a purpose why it was there?
7. Do you intend to leave us clues somewhere so we have a chance of tracking you down (IC)?
8, will you be willing to negotiate a set of rules for this that alters the way you have acted so far?
9. did you consider that this might actually course a lot more harm than fun?
10. why did you not contact at least one of our members before you did this? That would have helped a lot on how we feel about this
11. Did you leave chars in our GH which could steel even more stuff from us?
12. How did you manage to steal everything when there were around 100 Elemental Light members sleeping in there and a few others which have been granted access?
13. How can you say for sure that the NPC outside our door didn't otice anything oh and also the NPC at the entrance into the Plaza?


I will not accept a RP like this on the basis you created by doing it without even asking us first if we would be interested. I can't speak for everybody but i will highly recommend others not to take part in an event like this that have upset an entire guild (old and big) not only IC but OOC too. This is extremely bad RP.

- Kiaerulf
Ulber Tamer of Elemental Light

[Dajoji]

No act of harassment will be tolerated. File a petition and /report those who are resorting to it. We will deal with them.

[Duraza]

By not letting them react IC (discovering evidence at the crime scene, seeing some of their goods in the Ojaveda market or whatever) your are that guy who won't let the thief rob him a circle. Don't you see it's the same kind of "untouchable" attitude? It is not about who gets away with it but giving all players a chance for their characters to react to the situation.

Don't kill your own RP by not letting others join in.

Firstly let me say I agree with Dajoji fully heartedly here. It isn't right if you do not give them a chance to respond back, leave some kind of weakness or way for them to create a conflict with you. There doesn't have to be a definate winner and you could still suceede in the end but make sure there is a chance that they could as well win. If they don't seize the chance then it is their fault  

the did not respond instead they started sending me query's in ICR, ooc tells in game..ooc chat in main in the tavern telling me I was wrong I should feel bad I should be more mature I should give it back. and challenging me.

I have to say if this is the case than I would not worry about it. Try and explain to them that your willing to give them a chance at winning. If they don't take the chance or aren't willing to be fair about the situation then I'd just ignore them. It isn't worth the time if they aren't willing to cooperate.

Edit:

One thing I disagree with you on Kiaerulf is this:

If you had contacted us (or at least one of us) in advance and agreeing on a set of terms I am quiet sure we would find a RP like this fun

I feel rp should always be random. Things happen in the real world and they take you by surprise. Sometimes for big events it is easier to plan such things out ahead of time. This however was a robbery, something that players often rp without warning. I don't feel that it is necessary for them to have to warn you. They started an rp with you. Now it would be your turn to react. Planning these things in advance really takes away from the realism of the roleplay. When random you truely have the chance to test your rping skills, to force yourself to react how your character would react.

[Kaerli]

My 2 Tria:  How were they supposed to coordinate this ahead of time?  It's kinda hard to predict when somebody's going to leave the guildhouse unlocked...btw...RPing leaving clues behind for the long-term is difficult without extremely close coordination and/or some form of support from the game-mechs.  Also, people tend to have OOC emotions over their characters, unfortunately.  (some more than others)  So, if you feel like settling this through coordination, go ahead...I personally do not think of it as right for GMs/Devs to get involved AT ALL though, considering that the thieves did not exploit anything in order to enter.

[Izzabella]

And I'd like to point out I am NOT the only one involved Sov made the post. Yell at him too! ToY was in on it as well! why do I get all the blame? it was not just me. it was several other outlaws and a few ToY as well.

I am not making any further comments at this time.

[kiaerulf]

One thing I disagree with you on Kiaerulf is this:

If you had contacted us (or at least one of us) in advance and agreeing on a set of terms I am quiet sure we would find a RP like this fun

I feel rp should always be random. Things happen in the real world and they take you by surprise. Sometimes for big events it is easier to plan such things out ahead of time. This however was a robbery, something that players often rp without warning. I don't feel that it is necessary for them to have to warn you. They started an rp with you. Now it would be your turn to react. Planning these things in advance really takes away from the realism of the roleplay. When random you truely have the chance to test your rping skills, to force yourself to react how your character would react.

All I ask of is if they at least left us with a clue that this is a RP event. I am not asking for a detailed agreement just something like: you will not loose anything of importance, like quest objects, crafted weapons and other stuff that can't easily be recovered. Second: No, our entire guild didn't have to know or agree about this until it actually happened. As i said: if they contacted me asking if we were interested in doing such an event i would most likely accept and "accidentally" leave the door open.
All i ask of is some clues of what is going on: is it a noob that needed money and just went and sold everything or is it a RP. I don't like being told something like that 33 hours after it had happend. Oh, and I definitely don't like being told that there are no clues what so ever because we covered our tracks very well.

This was only possible to do because of the way the game mechanics work. This wouldn't have been possible IRL. Not with a guild of over 100 members.

I know what i really think of this but I will not tell 'cus you will not like to hear that. Yea, Im furious about how you did this, and so is pretty much else of the EL.

And Izzabella: You can't expect people to sit in front of the computer 24x7. At least give us a little time to find a way of reacting. And btw. I suggest you ignore whatever comments you get from my guildmates. Don't take that any further. I have asked them just to leave it and the Tamer group will come up with a solution. But i can't restrict them in what they actually write.
I ask of you walk careful here. You are in a mine field right now (mixture of emotions and other stuff). You kinda started this in a bad way. So give them some slack.

- Kiaerulf
Ulber Tamer of the Elemental Light

[zorbels]

With all of the term oil that has been brought to light with this RP I don't think a guild war would be the wisest of ideas. There are people upset here and a guild war will only make it worse. It wouldn't be done purely in RP because of the people who are pissed off OOC. I think another solution is in order. Hope you guys (ALL WHO WERE INVOLVED) work it out and set a good example for those who will land up in this situation in the furture. 

[Edit] spelling error