Author Topic: German PlaneShift Community and "spoilers"  (Read 8891 times)

StitchedChin

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Re: German PlaneShift Community and "spoilers"
« Reply #60 on: April 29, 2008, 11:49:39 pm »
Good, back on topic, maybe this topic has been beaten to death, but I think a good goal for PS is to make the need for spoilers obsolete or mute, instead of trying to police web sites from posting them.  I'm racking my brain trying to figure out how that could be done.  I always seem to come back to super computer AI or the more realistic one of keeping NPC quests a side event in PS.  The more rewarding and character enhancing the NPC quests are, the more cheating and spoilers for quest discovery will occur.  I think you guys have done a great job at making quests long and painful and really most of them are spoiler free.  As long as you can't skip a part, ie. gain the item for NPC1 from NPC2 before you even speak to NPC1, then the work still needs to be done to complete the quest and it is spoiler free in my opinion.  I'm at about 80 completed quests and have asked for help a few times, from other players, guild members and Rizin.  I'm usually a word off and just got stumped on one riddle, but the quests have been more of a long roleplaying tutorial then a way to super level up my character.  I think it should stay like that as I've gotten to know Yliakum pretty well through the quests and it isn't a bid deal if I can't finish one.  I just move on to the next one.  A lot of times the answer can come later.

One brain storm I have in helping to make a roleplaying game spoiler-free is to give more control to the community and not so much in the hands of the NPC.  I think player-to-player quests should be developed more, that and dynamic NPC to multi-player quests, but that is for another time.  I know, I know, everyone argues that guild masters will just give their members 3 gazillion experience points and trias for learning how to wave, but I think there is a way.  If you can somehow have an infrastructure in place that can calculate the xp reward for a quest, then it can keep it in check.  For example, a quality score can be calculated for the quest, just as a quality score is calcd in the creation of a dagger or shield.  When the dagger is sold to a NPC, it has an idea of the "value" of the dagger, so XP can be calculated for the quest.  Maybe the quest giver has to come up with the tria or the item for reward.  Oh, oh, or the quest giver has to build up experience that they give out for quests, so they can only do one quest each week or so.  Or heck, go with a no reward system for custom quests in the beginning, just to see how it would go.  Custom quests are going on all the time now, but it'd be nice if they had an easier way to set them up and create the ambiance.  Maybe D&D Online does this, but I wonder if the dungeon master in everyone will come out in PS if the custom quest is easy to execute in PS, following the rules and consistencies of Yliakum of course.  I'm obviously talking out of my arse, with average programming experience I can't say whether this would work or how to do it, or maybe it already happened and it didn't work out.  But one thing is constant in this world, the bigger the reward on quests, the more emphasis there is on quests, the more "cheating" and spoilers you'll see pop up and it'll get out of control, especially the day when PS hits 1 million users.  PS seems to thrive on roleplaying and players want to make up their own stories and adventures, developing some tools for them may enhance the roleplaying world...

Xillix Queen of Fools

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Re: German PlaneShift Community and "spoilers"
« Reply #61 on: April 30, 2008, 12:54:16 am »
The settings team is ahead of other teams on bug policing, that or the other methods advocated here are the proper way to get the changes you want made made.

Continued advice in this medium will be of little assistance to getting your problems fixed.

In terms of spoilers there is only Talad to say yay or nay.

Jeraphon

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Re: German PlaneShift Community and "spoilers"
« Reply #62 on: April 30, 2008, 01:05:32 am »
Quote
Or Kilas' Test of Education...not sure where those answers came from, unless in some obscure book in the library.

There aren't that many books in the library. And yes, some come from the library. Others come from action locations. Others come from NPC dialogues. The point is, it's a test of education. It's inviting you to go look stuff up in books and explore and get educated. Using a spoiler list is totally against the point. It's like being asked to do a research project and then just buying someone else's paper without researching it.

ThomPhoenix

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Re: German PlaneShift Community and "spoilers"
« Reply #63 on: April 30, 2008, 01:21:38 am »
Kilas' education quest were hard, but fun. Made me learn a lot about PlaneShift. If you use quest spoilers because you have problems with finding the correct formulations of the answers (but do know the answers yourself!), then I agree with the spoiler-er. However, always report the sentence the NPC didn't respond to, but you think it should, to Settings. If you use spoilers because a quest is "too hard" or "takes too long", then, well, do some other quest. Harnquist is always in need of apples.
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neko kyouran

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Re: German PlaneShift Community and "spoilers"
« Reply #64 on: April 30, 2008, 01:25:42 am »
only quest i ever completed was giving Harn some apples.  He's a hungry guy, that one.  :D

Velh Krome

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Re: German PlaneShift Community and "spoilers"
« Reply #65 on: April 30, 2008, 11:08:14 am »
Perhaps most things are already said meanwhile, but since on the german forums there is that post of mine in the obviously wrong section, I feel pushed to add my opinion on this topic as well.
I also would like to accent, that some of the following points may not affect all the facts, but since we all should know about exceptions and rules.. also, I am aware of the developmental state at all, but I am also aware of only criticizm  may bring changes - long story short: Dont be too much provoked! Only a little... lol=P As usual, dont take my stuff serious to death, huh?;)


Firstly, Fyre got a point there: Its not always logics, made for everyone, that quests base on, it also often enough requires good knowledge of the english language. More than one quest I would have never been able to solve without the help of natively english speaking fellars. Particularly thinking of a kran, poetry and some.. perhaps a figure of speech or whatever it is - I actually never understood the meaning of the resolving answer.

Oh, perhaps someone may have seen my post in the german forums: I in fact accidentally posted that in the wrong section (the public one), which I want to apologize for. On the other hand though its topic turned out to be a typo in the reply that had to be given in that quest (the quest actually contained 2 typos. Rizin fixed it though as she said).

Another point.. I cant agree on questing only the way it may be meant to be. With "meant to be" I presume being ic, taking decisions fitting the character, roleplaying. Considering that every certain shield-type would come from one certain NPC in Yliakum, and that this guy would have to have some huge storage house for only those shields, I would expect most people to agree on the game lacking sense there.
What I am aiming at though is, that I would post quest-solutions for my friends and me for the purpose we can quickly gather certain items, for in the end we can make up some different story about how one of our chars was given it or we can reward each other for self-made quests. Indeed, such a procedure lacks any ic'ishness of the character questing (=gathering the rewards), on the other hand though it provides the chance to tell new stories, instead of the always same and boring explanation of "xyz handed it to me because I helped him out with uvw", which again will be repeated by the next player.
An example given in another post, are glyphs. Besides only traders selling them, they also grow in nature. So why acquiring them only by consequent questing, being ic and taking the jobs others also had? Why not taking a quick quest, perhaps even fully ooc, and then come up with a played out innovative story about it for a change? Same way doing those quests oocly, they would be posted.

But however, one more point of view, which may contain some assumption on the reason for the restriction.
Forbidding spoilers to be published, wouldnt that take away responsibility off people? Shouldnt people be allowed to decide on their own wether to use them or not, instead of being parented?
With published quest-solutions massrecruiting guilds perhaps had less arguments to convince newbies to join, only for after some time getting used to an ooc way to play the game. With accessible quest-solutions a player could focus on his roleplay, and when getting frustrated by questing he could peek.
After all, would a passionated roleplayer have to be a passionated riddler and a very well english speaker as well for he can enjoy all parts of Planeshift?

I use quests the very most part for gathering more of Yliakum's background story. Taking quests icly I always find hard, since for example many many people had delivered some oh so urgent letter already. Needless to say that many NPCs would have to be considered rather stupid, lacking memory etc.. What I dont like about it is, that I need to run around, without really being able to do that icly. After a longer time of not questing anymore, I got back into it. My char as a hunter asks everyone in Gugrontid (a town surely not known for its leatherworkers) for jobs? Either my hunter cant find any prey anymore, no one buys his wares anymore, or I just cant see the sense in it. I made up some other reason, although it left me quite unsatisfied.
Long story short: After some intense time of roleplaying I now and then need to interrupt it for going into questing. I feel the need for that since I want to know more about the interesting stories added, interesting they undoubtly are! Questlogs could change that: Information for everyone!

Few times I rushed quests for only gathering the reward, because I needed it to make up some story to be played out. Most of the time I read questlogs, even when I never did the quests. Hm.. so now I do disappoint UtM? So what? As long as there will be items included that are only accessible by rather unrealistical and unnatural ways ("Only some believer kran having a certain helm type, not one trader around though?"), added the lack of implemented ways (like glyphs should spawn randomly according to the setting), I surely wont change that habit.
Sadly I never had any impression that would ever change, Holy Helms, Wands.. - that could take away the l33t-element off the game ;)

Xillix Queen of Fools

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Re: German PlaneShift Community and "spoilers"
« Reply #66 on: April 30, 2008, 04:04:27 pm »
By using spoilers instead of calling attention to the problems players perpetuate the game's troubles.

I don't wanna hear the rpers try to make it the case that they need spoilers because we don't provide them with easy access to props and argue that quests too favor plers.

According to many rpers everything they cannot type into existences is a burden to their play experience.

I do not want the point to be missed again. We need the help of the players via the bugtracker and the other means we have provided for you to give us usable feedback.

Speaking exclusively for settings team:
 
We have good people dedicated to adding triggers.

We do not want to be told how to work by the "wise" people who do not work with us every day or understand the pressures we face.

We do not want the puzzles we struggle to make to be laid bare for any nubcake with the dream of having a hand glyph to be able to just run and grab without thinking about the actions he/she takes along the way.

We do not want people to treat quests as a minor imposition on the way to go and get needed props for a "far superior" rp involving thousand eyed shadows that slurp your soul and make gods of peasants.

We do not want quest information displayed in a way that anyone who wants to may simply copy all our ideas tricks puzzles and rewards and reuse them for their own ends without giving anything to advance planeshift in any way in return.

We want to help the game advance and we want players to help us with the streamlined means we have provided them to do so.

Velh Krome

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Re: German PlaneShift Community and "spoilers"
« Reply #67 on: April 30, 2008, 04:32:22 pm »
Quote
We do not want people to treat quests as a minor imposition on the way to go and get needed props for a "far superior" rp involving thousand eyed shadows that slurp your soul and make gods of peasants.
Noted.

However, I didnt mean to sound offending.
As usual you devs got your view on things - case closed for me.

Arerano

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Re: German PlaneShift Community and "spoilers"
« Reply #68 on: April 30, 2008, 05:04:18 pm »
Please forgive me my ignorance in case it's already mentioned somewhere.
But WHAT exactly is the best way to report Quest-related issues (eg on the bugtracker) without giving too much information about the quest? (eg origin/name/phrase/etc)
i agree with the previously proposed in-game "tool" of /reportquestbug (or whatever). Those who play in fullscreen will find it annoying to exit PS, report the bug, then start PS again.

Sorry for being  :offtopic:

Concerning the "German Community", well, it's hard to say.. I, for myself don't use any spoilers unless I am really certain that I do have the right answer. And this can indeed take quite some time for the more tough riddles which I really like! How great a feeling it is to come up with the answer without any help. I do help - to some extent - if someone is really stuck.. but I deny to give some "whole solution" without having them think. And no, my guild page doesn't contain any quest spoiler (aka there you get that, or say that to that guy - whatever). (maybe that makes it hard to keep people? :P ...well, there's nothing to steal, why should they join? *chuckles* but probably I should be glad to not offer such a thing, and I, - indeed - am fond of those few fellows I have.)

Caarrie

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Re: German PlaneShift Community and "spoilers"
« Reply #69 on: April 30, 2008, 05:07:22 pm »
Please forgive me my ignorance in case it's already mentioned somewhere.
But WHAT exactly is the best way to report Quest-related issues (eg on the bugtracker) without giving too much information about the quest? (eg origin/name/phrase/etc)
i agree with the previously proposed in-game "tool" of /reportquestbug (or whatever). Those who play in fullscreen will find it annoying to exit PS, report the bug, then start PS again.

report as much as possible on the tracker without giving too much, the bug will be made private and you can then add the rest after that.

Arerano

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Re: German PlaneShift Community and "spoilers"
« Reply #70 on: April 30, 2008, 05:17:13 pm »
report as much as possible on the tracker without giving too much, the bug will be made private and you can then add the rest after that.

Which makes it a bigger effort to report quest bugs.
- Report some littly information without providing too much
- save the url
- write down or remember the additional information
- wait till it got marked private and look at it occasionally
- add the rest of the information

I think that's too much for most players. Yet it's very important that quest-bugs get reported. Maybe a "report bug" in the quest window which saves additional information like "current state", "which exact quest" etc, plus the option to provide additional info, maybe even "provided answers so far" - would be very handy for both the lazy players/testers and the settings team.

Xillix Queen of Fools

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Re: German PlaneShift Community and "spoilers"
« Reply #71 on: April 30, 2008, 05:18:19 pm »
The bugtracker is here:

http://www.hydlaa.com/flyspray_upgrade/

Inconsistencies between settings assets should go here:

http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=28285.0

Places where npcs are stupid or there are insufficient triggers should go here:

http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=29353.0

Problems with quests can go to Rizin here:

http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?action=pm;sa=send;u=30268

If you are too lazy to hit alt + tab to do any of these things while in game you can use the petition system in game
 
(which I think should be a last resort as it is basically forcing gms to do work that you as the tester should take responsibility for)

All of this info is stickied in the forum and iterated elsewhere in this thread, but to simplify, it is all in this post now.

I think this post, the stickies, the report feature, the bug tracker, and any new feature advocated in this thread would be avoided for the same reasons the current tools are not used: people are slothful by nature and players do not view themselves as testers. People do not seem to realize their effort is needed to promote the game's advancement. Please don't treat the devs/gms/testers as costumer service this is a community effort.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2008, 05:29:10 pm by Xillix Queen of Fools »

Nikodemus

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Re: German PlaneShift Community and "spoilers"
« Reply #72 on: April 30, 2008, 05:52:15 pm »
We do not want to be told how to work by the "wise" people who do not work with us every day or understand the pressures we face.
Noone "told" anyone what to do, everyone adviced only. It is good to remember that only a few of the players who are expected to bugreport posted there. All the other people who maybe don't even care to post at the forums will eighter go bugreporting as we are all adviced, or more probable, IMO they will do nothing at all, but playing game against the popular statement that we are testers. The majority of people play, not test. IMO it is a good idea to take advantage of that instead of waiting till they get conviced to bugreport.
IMO it is in 95% up to he devs, the small  5% belongs to the players who do not really work with you every day or understand the pressures you face. What will you do with the 95% is all up to you, you can kind of alienate and tell us what to do or try developing with the "wise" people, near developing for them.

I could take every word of a dev as holy without discussing, but it is leading to nowhere but stagnacy and with stagnacy there is no progress. My father uses to say that if there is no progress you are in fact going backwards. I could also stop holding myself and feel offended and in fact i would if i wasn't caring, but I also can't discuss this publicly, because it is forbidden on these boards or at least not a good idea, but I'm nearly always open for discussion, privately, because obviously not here.

About BT.
make bugs marked as quest private automatically uppon submitting, simple, but then again this will convice maybe 0.1% of people for quest bugreporting.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2008, 05:56:55 pm by Nikodemus »



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Xillix Queen of Fools

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Re: German PlaneShift Community and "spoilers"
« Reply #73 on: April 30, 2008, 06:19:39 pm »
Nikodemus, your advice was not helpful (not anything we have not already looked at and not pertinent to the discussion at hand at all) and further you have ignored my admonitions and foisted the problem back on us. Systemically people are arguing in favor of the lazy way: use the spoiler, get the treat.

I ask that everyone realize the game does not come from the ether, it comes from the hard work of some dedicated people.

If I have no right to expect better of the players than to simply consume the game as a finished product and therefore complain, and "suggest" how to improve things from outside the tent, I have no real interest in working with that sort of use oriented community.

If the testers want the game's progression to be a dialog, I ask that the testers learn the language the developers have established to most effectively process their advice.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2008, 06:33:42 pm by Xillix Queen of Fools »

neko kyouran

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Re: German PlaneShift Community and "spoilers"
« Reply #74 on: April 30, 2008, 06:38:25 pm »
heres the bottom line folks:  you use a spoiler, you delay game development.

if you can live with that, so be it.  but you're never seeing the official forums/ site link to any sites that promote public spoiler sharing.