Roleplaying Focus

[Lambchop]

What bilbous said goes for me too.

[Lanarel]

I find it rather interesting the number of Roplards posting.

Must be that all others are busy leveling . I do not consider myself a Roplard, but more of an example of someone who likes to play the game (try out some crafting, do quests, talk with NPCs and players), and was helped when starting to play to do this in a way that does not annoy others. At least I hope. So my character (used to) spend most of the time 'on the road' doing quests, exploring new areas, trying out new crafts, waiting to pick up alchemy , stopping often to talk with others, and hanging out the rest of the time drinking beer. Most fun I had were things that were organized by others on the border of RP, such as Proglins tournaments (bumping into one was the thing that got me hooked to PS), the big war in trepor valley, Explorer guild's HAGS, gambling games.

I wonder how many of you actively report bugs in the game mechanics. I suspect there are whole swaths of the game some of you ignore because all you need to do is walk around, chat and roll dice. If all you do is role play and do not test then a case could be made for "who needs you!" After all "testers first, players second," right? I am not saying this should be the prevailing sentiment just that it could be. It is no less offensive than "to hell with people who don't role play."

Actually, I prefer "player first, but tester as well" (my personal opinion). Meaning everyone should have fun playing the game, but not forget to report problems they encounter, and not getting too upset when something bad happens due to bugs. Being one of (too) few members of the testing team I spent most of my time now going through the bugs, and "tester first, player once in a while" seems more accurate for me , but I think the game would benefit more if a larger number of people would play the game (using game mechanics or just sitting in the tavern until your client crashes). I do agree that you are also a tester and should report though.

I voted snorks cuz I already voted seriously with another account.

You are devaluating my vote! I voted snorks as all/none of the above, not to get to 100 votes

[Draklar]

You're making a mmorpg and focusing it on rp...
...
Of course that'll score you few players!

The genre is all about hack&slash. Most people that play mmorpg's look for the stats challenge, fighting with other players, slashing monsters, guild wars, casual chatter and stuff like that. Who cares about role-play?

The people you aim for grow up on tabletops and on MUDs. They don't need fancy graphics and most of all a 3D world.
Add to that many MUDs are actually free, and it seems you're competing with games that have more features, much more mature player-base, insanely large worlds and a greater role-play focus. And you have graphics. Again, how many role-players actually care about these?
Oh, and I do believe many role-players will choose a commercial mmorpg over Planeshift. Otherwise, why would the commercial mmorpg's host entire rp servers? I think it's some recent trend or something.

So yeah, you're making a game that is ought to be a niche one.

[Sen]

There are most things said already... there are a few points that are still remarkable for me.

I think the roleplay focus doesn't provide us more players, but ones that tend to stay here longer and maybe be more loyal (correct me if Im wrong). Though I regard the players as players and not as testers this is probably also a plus from development point of view. Players that play the game for a periode of levelling and then leave again doesn't bring the game forward.

If we try to make the game more attractive for players that are (only) here for levelling etc. Im not even sure if this will provide us more players (Independent from how much the community wants the majority of the players to be like this). Playing planeshift has for me three major advantages: free, OS independent and roleplay. Other games have better graphics, engine, better whatever... and maybe is even free. So why take planeshift when other games fulfill one's needs better..?

But actually I think we can combine the advantages of more players and roleplayers/long term players to some extend if we are more welcoming to new players. How many of the roleplayers started as powerlevellers or at least non-roleplayers? I was happy with having a free mmorpg running under linux to stay long enough to get introduced to roleplay.
I think the players aswell as the game should try to introduce new players and potential players to roleplay and we hopefully get this way more (role)players to let this niche game grow.

Sen

[Xillix Queen of Fools]

Before I get into some analysis of the specific numbers of the poll I want to make a bit of a statement about what I think of polls. Polling is at best a snapshot of a group of people at a specific juncture in time. It is not reasonable to draw from a poll generalizations that apply to long spans of time. The results expressed here are only a minor reflection of an aspect of the community RIGHT NOW.

This poll does not have ANY scientific pretensions. I knew that the way certain things were phrased would be somewhat leading and there were intended pitfalls in the options to help me to illustrate certain points I wanted to make about the community. Also however, these numbers do bear a narrative. To me, the results of this poll indicate both some positive trends and some dynamics that I would really like to change with the help of the community.

Question:      Honestly, do you believe that PlaneShift's focus on Role-playing is costing it players?

------------------------------Yes.    - 13 (12.9%)

To XilliX it is beyond the shadow of a doubt that planeshift's rp focus does cost it players. If I had expressed myself in a conditional way as some in the is thread have, asking something like "Does planeshift's role-playing focus cost it any players that the game would want to keep?" I am sure this would have been a more solid no, I might even have agreed to an extent.  I have had numerous people tell me they have quit due to people "policing" how they speak in game.

The settings team made a large effort to include some instruction on how to respect "roleplay conventions" which were established by the players in the tutorial itself. The work on the tutorial is continuing aggressively as I type this. The entire gm team and Rizin are on it now. Our having adopted the conventions of the players should be seen as a way in which we are trying to insulate the new player from the kind of chiding they receive in game for not adhering to what is recognized as rp etiquette in game. This is not to say that the tutorial grants a tester any right or any official sanction to chastise other players about how they speak.

Someone in this thread brought up the idea that "roleplay is encourgaed" it is important to focus on this; roleplay is "encouraged" not enforced. Any guidance toward a new player should be gentle and not matter of fact. It is very certainly a fact that we want players to role play, but we also want to provide a friendly atmosphere for those who will only embrace rp when they discover that rp is appealing. No one is doing a good job at encouraging rp when they start "judging" the rp of other people.

-------------------------------No.    - 31 (30.7%)

This answer I find either completely mistaken or less than intellectually honest. I am not saying there is any intentional dishonesty in those who firmly believe the rp focus is not costing ps players, I just hope those people will be open to my arguments throughout this post. I have confidence that people come here get scolded by someone and leave, not only never to return, but also certain to post a negative review somewhere due to how they were treated by their fellow players. I will admit we lost the single largest cross-section of players to the incomplete state of the game, but the fact that we lose any potential future rpers to the didactic tone of one player to another is something the whole community should be wary of.

-------------------------------I think the community should try to be more welcoming.    - 28 (27.7%)

You think? to me this is a big no brainer you can look at the fact that 20.8 percent voted for the option below and easily see that there is an attitude present on the part of some role players that is unbecoming toward other styles of play. It does not serve the game at all to be elitist in regard to its roleplaying focus. It is and will remain a bastion for roleplayers, but this does not mean that it is ok to be rude to more casual gamers.

As a passionate and committed developer I am calling on the community to work very hard to be more welcoming. I feel as though I have recruited everyone I can from the current community and this indicates to me that we MUST increase the player pool. I earnestly need the player community to help with this by trying to exhibit more patience with incoming players. That "Pling (btw I still HATE this term) loudmouth that refused to rp" may well be the genius coder who figures out great ways to reward rp via game mechanics, or they may be the brilliant artist who finishes all the races, but we will never know, because most of those people quit before they come to love the game or the community enough to get involved. Sure in many cases this does not happen, but the dev team has more than one person who was focused on game mechanics who joined us and did wonders for the game's development.

How we behave (I know I can be the biggest asshat in asshat-town sometimes so I mean me too) on the forums and irc is huge in this regard. We must work on how we talk to each other here. Not just dev to player, but player to gm, player to player, dev to gm, gm to dev, Talad to team and team to Talad. Across the board I think we can all communicate with a bit more grace.

I have seen a very marked tendency for people to argue a lot especially around rps that have been done. The same is true for gm events. Everyone has their two cents to put in on everything. I offer one advice: start with what you did enjoy about someone's work before you dig into them. It is always easier to take advice from someone we believe respects us and has our best interest in mind, than to take advice from some scathing jackass who is out to prove how smart, witty, deep, intelligent, they are. It is easy to dismiss someone who is advancing some personal agenda we individually do not agree to. Establish a common ground, define your terms, then argue with civility

When we fight about the definition of good roleplay I feel that we all must realize their is no objective definition, that the topic is elaborate, and that every assertion is subject to debate. Taking an approach that is more open and positive in tone is essential to furthering not just PS, but what it means to rp in the 21st century. It is always hazardous to make such a claim, but I believe PS is uniquely positioned to help to define the direction of roleplaying over the internet in the next years. Haughty? Sure. To me however this is an ideal we should at least consider shooting for. 

-----------------------------To hell with anyone who does not role play.    - 21 (20.8%)

I have a hard time believing that fully a fifth of those polled allowed themselves to fall into this category. IT'S A TRAP!!! should have been labeled in this question. This statistic illustrates to me that at least among those commenting on the forums there is a solid core of very judgmental players who are willing to FIGHT for rp. This is not all bad at all. I am glad we have some very passionate role players. I do want to point out however that this attitude may in part inform why some people stated in this thread that they hate these forums.

The attitude expressed here is completely antithetical to what I identify as our goals in this community, to build a game that is legitimate competition for all mmorpgs on all fronts, but more specifically as the premier mmoRPg. Just because PlaneShift has an intention of becoming the most rp focused of supposed "roleplaying" games does not grant license to damn players with interests other than roleplaying. It does no service to PlaneShift for it to be known as a pocket of crazies who will be rude to anyone who does not roleplay.

Having worked for a couple months on Public Relations for planeshift I can say with certainty that the attitudes of many people here are an extreme turn off to people who cone to window shop PlaneShift (this is not just the players but the devs and gms in some cases so don't feel as though there is no introspection in my saying so). We need to assure that everyone and ESPECIALLY those who voted for this option make an effort to be more welcoming to new players.

I think it is somewhat alarming that one in five players participating in this poll would make such an intense statement. What do you think are the odds of a new player encountering someone who things they should piss off because they do not or cannot rp?

-----------------------------Snorks.    - 8 (8.1%)

I always include a joke vote because I would rather have people who don't care about the argument at hand enough to vote seriously to vote for something flippant. In this poll I did not do that: "LONG LIVE THE SNORKS!"

By way of a last word (for this post) I want to thank everyone who has participated so far for their contributions to this thread. I believe we have taken a good snapshot of views about the game here. I think we have also seen some good arguments for various view points played out here. Looking forward i would like all of us to do our best to get new players. MUDS and other types of rpg games  were mentioned, I will start a thread at some point about strategies we might use to draw good rpers from these outlets into planeshift. I do think we have a shot at being a forerunner among 3d mmoRPgs and we should look forward in that way. Remember always that how you conduct yourself toward new players is their first impression of the community.

[Kaityra]

The attitude expressed here is completely antithetical to what I identify as our goals in this community, to build a game that is legitimate competition for all mmorpgs on all fronts, but more specifically as the premier mmoRPg.

Sorry, but I don't think that this is realistic. I can only advise that you have a look around the MMO(RP)G-market and see for yourself what other games offer in comparison with Planeshift. In my eyes Planeshift is years behind of what is state of the art.
You can try to follow mainstream but you sure will have to face serious competition. Or you can offer something special and get your share of people who are interested in this and couldn't find it in other games. The problem with roleplaying is that just a few players, who do not follow it, are enough to spoil the fun for other who are into it. Just my two cents.

[Dajoji]

Hear, hear. It is the community that can make people stay despite the bugs or the long way to go before the game is finished as well as the reason why people leave with a sour aftertaste in their mouths. Still, there are many ways players can make this a better community.

I do think that, ultimately, it is the people behind this project (devs, moderators, game masters, testers) who need to lead the effort to recruit more players (with PR, advertising, focused and professional moderation, etc.), while the community tries to be more welcoming. We all can help out from where we stand.

[Xillix Queen of Fools]

I prefer that we not defer responsibility for expanding the game to the devs.

I am not compensated, I have no more interest in ps than someone who was once a player who decided to volunteer to make the game better.

I think the community should be absolutely allied to advancing the game if they want to fight and fuss about what needs to be done to improve the game they must take an active roll in making those advances possible.

We should not foist all responsibility for advancing the game on the volunteer developers.

My hope is that people can see that participating in the quest to build a free mmoRPg is a goal we all hold in common regardless of the level of commitment from person to person.

[Pizik]

XilliX: I couldnt agree more with your long post. which makes this a very short one 

[MustangMR]

A very good analysis, Xillix.  As someone who recently fell into the "some scathing jackass who is out to prove how smart, witty, deep, intelligent," category, I did sit back and try to find out why I fell into that trap so quickly.  Time and time again, what I noticed was that lead in sentences had so much to do with it.  So many times, the initial statement had a harsh criticism in it, both on my own part and from others, but I just bit at it and ignored all the other things that were said.  I think we all do that, so I would just like to add that when communicating with others, pay close attention to how you start your replies.  Flame wars start with that first spark.  Build up your arguments first, then maybe the person you're talking to will realize what a jerk they were being before you even have to tell them.  Sometimes at least. 

I do believe you have a few challenges ahead of you to reach the goals you are striving for, some based on your design choices, some based on your community decisions, but overall, PS is progressing very well from where it was a few years ago when I first came here  The competition is pretty fierce.  You do have the advantage of being free, and that can be hard to beat.  The best part, you're multi-platform.  As M$ continues to kill demand for Windows PC gaming, you could be well positioned to be the next big thing... on Linux.

[eldoth_terevan]

I think Xillix's analysis is spot-on.

[Orgonwukh]

I think people play PS for mainly three reasons:

1. Roleplay
2. Powelevelling
3. Chatting ICly and/or OOCly to people

I have seen many people losing interest in PS and leave for other games. Mainly those only focused on 2. and/or 3.
I, myself play PS because of a mixture of all three and I think many share this attitude. The community I know is usually very welcoming, although I, myself, sometimes feel frustrated after spending hours showing people around, then see them leave for WoW.

However, here are some observations, that might help:
- I agree, the area of PS is too huge. Too much space for too few players.
- However, the spots where people gathered are few:
- Some gather at the mine. Those are usually PLers and hence chatting is mainly OOC, even in main.
- Some gather at the arena. Same here, I seldom find IC speech here.
- The rest usually gathers in the plaza or taverns. A good place to find the roleplay naz.. I mean fanatics

I somehow am dissatisfied with the PLers, who fight for no IC reasons, sometimes. I also dislike the RP fanatics who create a char every week and give them supernatural powers while never training a thing. I try to be somewhere in between, which is an attitude not many seem to share. This might be the reason why it is difficult to find someone to rp/fight with. I also think that the settings limit me in my actions as a player, because fighting is not allowed in the cities, where the crowds gather. The area outside town walls is usually very empty and only travellers can be found there.

Summarizing: I think people actually are leaving because of the focus on RP (I vote 'yes' for that reason). But do numbers count? I think there should be a way to make our few guys stick more together in some areas and thus enforce interaction (with maybe less limits).

[neko kyouran]

I earnestly need the player community to help with this by trying to exhibit more patience with incoming players. That "Pling (btw I still HATE this term) loudmouth that refused to rp" may well be the genius coder who figures out great ways to reward rp via game mechanics, or they may be the brilliant artist who finishes all the races, but we will never know, because most of those people quit before they come to love the game or the community enough to get involved. Sure in many cases this does not happen, but the dev team has more than one person who was focused on game mechanics who joined us and did wonders for the game's development.

Case in point:  I had no idea what real "RP" was before starting playing the game.  If it wouldn't have been chance that I met nice people that were willing to put up with my stupidness, then I probably wouldn't have enjoyed playing so much ad would have left long ago.   And then you wouldn't have me as your moderator. 

[Xillix Queen of Fools]

Still curious about what others have to say, perhaps we will give this thread a couple more days to live before locking it.

[Anumesa]

I earnestly need the player community to help with this by trying to exhibit more patience with incoming players. That "Pling (btw I still HATE this term) loudmouth that refused to rp" may well be the genius coder who figures out great ways to reward rp via game mechanics, or they may be the brilliant artist who finishes all the races, but we will never know, because most of those people quit before they come to love the game or the community enough to get involved. Sure in many cases this does not happen, but the dev team has more than one person who was focused on game mechanics who joined us and did wonders for the game's development.

Case in point:  I had no idea what real "RP" was before starting playing the game.  If it wouldn't have been chance that I met nice people that were willing to put up with my stupidness, then I probably wouldn't have enjoyed playing so much ad would have left long ago.   And then you wouldn't have me as your moderator. 

Same here. Planeshift was my first official MMORPG (EVER!!) and i had never experienced any of the gaming culture or tendencies before this. As i waited for my download, luckily i thought of reading the PS site and trying to understand the settings, RP, etc..so i -did- come into the game with at least a tiny idea of what to do. However, it was actually a PLer who "took me under his wing" so to speak and showed me everything about the game. He took the time to show me around, to teach me the ropes and even introduced me to some good friends that i still maintain now. So I entered PS as a PLer, and thought nothing of it..since i was surrounded by many people who were PLing as well, i didnt really see a lot of RP, and though i knew i technically -should- be RPIng i didnt see it so i didnt think anything of it. I also did not know the difference between brackets and no brackets, or any of that, so i was fairly clueless when it came to RP. Eventually, however i was introduced to RP and it intrigued me completely. I have been blessed (or cursed) with an overactive imagination, so the plots and schemes that i started to encounter definitely pulled me away from PLing and transformed me into a sole RPer.

So even now, when i may encounter someone who uses "LOL"s and "OMG"s in mainchat and who talk about "pwning" Ulbers, i may inwardly cringe a bit, but i do remember my first teacher and just smile. I also know several people in game who may use these terms, but who also RP in their own way. Though they may be using those terms, they are still in-character (in their own way), so appearances can be deceiving. I think the line between RP and PL is blurred (and yes i agree with Xillix, about the term PL...i also dont like it, but for the sake of being understood im using it). Its quite a broad spectrum, with hardcore RPers on one end who police anything that moves, and the sole PLers who dont RP in the slightest on the other end. I think everyone can fit somewhere in that spectrum, and even if someone may  RP "LOL"s in their speech, thats their choice, and at least they are trying. I think its very easy to at least maintain the proper persona (i know that sounds snooty...but i didnt mean it that way) in mainchat, and its very easy to learn...we just need to be patient as players and be more willing to teach, not just point fingers.

I hope that was relevant...i kinda went on a tangent there for a bit
Anyways..nice poll and review Xillix, i agree 100%