Nightvision? Infravision? What can YOU see?

[Velh Krome]

Alright.. I have posted this already in two other threads (1, 2), but perhaps it just requires a separate thread.

For a start I will just quote my original post:

I know campfires and mobile lightsources are all fancy and very good for atmosphere and all (not to forget the numerous players' demands for such) .. but still I am wondering:

According to race descriptions every race except for ylian and xacha either has nightvision or infravision.
What are your visions about how to proceed working on that for the future? One day players with ylian and xacha chars having the game appearing like it is today, while players with nightvision chars some green-tinted appearance, ones with infravision-chars some sort of ir-view?

Furthermore: Races with infravision, do they only see infrared-like, or is their normal vision just added by some heat-signature? Or is infravision meaning something complete different?
And finally: RPing chars with nightvision/infravision.. would they see any value in torches for their own benefit? Do they have any need for such at all?

I would like to add, that just now I have been online for only few minutes, and I was already (indirectly) faced with a smalltalk of an ynnwn and a klyros. The klyros (nightvision) was looking for a trader to buy a torch, for he had better vision exploring dark caves - does that make any sense?

[ThomPhoenix]

That information is from the same page which calls Yliakum a city, so many of what is there may be changed. Just wait roleplaying you can see in the dark until a Settings member tells you you can.

[Peanuts]

It's possible that the races with night and infrared vision would have a very good reason for wanting torches: color vision.   If you were, I don't know, exploring ancient ruins or something, it would probably be helpful to have the option of looking at an old painting in color instead of black and white (and you wouldn't even be able to see it in infrared).

IRL this isn't an explanation that would work - the way that the eye is structured doesn't allow for it.  Species with night vision would always see in black and white (or at least in a very limited color range), species with infrared would always see heat.  But Yliakum doesn't always follow real world limitations, so, eh.

[ThomPhoenix]

Not entirely true, some species of snakes have limited infrared vision.

[Velh Krome]

In my opinion it would only require the according receptors, like bees have some for uv-light, I could think of human retina could in addition contain different sorts of sensors as well. Such would end up in a mix of the way of vision we know it, complimented by uv-impressions.
Thats actually what I wondered, and what I would (have) like(d) to discuss and to clear up, but:

Just wait roleplaying you can see in the dark until a Settings member tells you you can.

Seems like at the current state we have to assume and roleplay all the races do have the same way seeing the world?
Maybe even until such will be implemented technically (which could still take some years lol)?

[Peanuts]

Not entirely true, some species of snakes have limited infrared vision.

Do they really?   This delights me and I have no idea why.

In my opinion it would only require the according receptors, like bees have some for uv-light, I could think of human retina could in addition contain different sorts of sensors as well. Such would end up in a mix of the way of vision we know it, complimented by uv-impressions.

I'm not totally sure re: UV, but I'm fairly certain there still have to be trade offs, and it would be a major pain in the neck to figure out what they would be.  You could also give Ylian eyes a tapetum lucidum - the membrane that makes a cat's eyes shine - which would improve night vision considerably . . . but the catch is that it makes for blurrier vision. 

[Velh Krome]

Hm.. I dont think it makes any difference if infrared or ultraviolet, after all both are only describing the top- and bottom limits of wavelengths our own eyes can sense. I could think of our eyes just having receptors that will not sense wavelength around 650nm (as it is), but may be limited already at like 500nm.
Bees however, among other alike insects, seem to have some sort of colorview, with additional sensors wavelengths shorter than what we define as blue (uv).


Another thing of course, besides the mere receptors, is the build of the eye, sort of lense-system and such.

You could also give Ylian eyes a tapetum lucidum - the membrane that makes a cat's eyes shine - which would improve night vision considerably

Yes, perhaps one way to think of nightvision could work for klyros for instance.

[Kaityra]

It's possible that the races with night and infrared vision would have a very good reason for wanting torches: color vision.   If you were, I don't know, exploring ancient ruins or something, it would probably be helpful to have the option of looking at an old painting in color instead of black and white (and you wouldn't even be able to see it in infrared).

IRL this isn't an explanation that would work - the way that the eye is structured doesn't allow for it.  Species with night vision would always see in black and white (or at least in a very limited color range), species with infrared would always see heat.  But Yliakum doesn't always follow real world limitations, so, eh.

As heat rarely follows sharp outlines the image received by infrared would be a little bit blurry, so a light source would have the advantage of seeing more clearly the details. A light source would be useful, too, if the differences in the heat sources isn't that great, e.g. a human body in a sauna.
Nightvision would use a minimum of light to enable you to still distinguish shapes. This could either be done by enhancing the signals received from the receptors, much like image processing or image intensifier would do it, or by using a greater number and/or more sensitive ones. it would still use normal light so I guess it would be subject to the limitations there, e.g. dispersion of light when reflected. So I guess it wouldn't be as far reaching. The nocturnal feline predators have some form of nightvision as far as I know.

[Under the moon]

There is a book on the subject in the library. Have a look.

[Zan]

What Moon said ... though one could question the complete validity of the book.

[Velh Krome]

Hm yes.. that book I guess can be taken as officially granted.
Seems like torches or lamps indeed may have a use for some races, and there are differences between types of nightvision. Also for some other races mobile lightsources are apparently worthless.

That info provided is however neither complete nor very accurate (and like Zan says, of questionable validity), but at least offers a way on how to RP stuff - I would like to add a critical note on having such knowledge hidden somewhere within the depths of the game. A new player will by no means be able to RP his character adequately. I confide though that the official Guide will be updated one day and contain all these necessary data=P

Thanks however for clearing it up as properly as possible.

[Adder]

I googled for some photos http://forums.se-nse.net/index.php?act=Print&client=printer&f=62&t=18193 and it would appear that infrared would best be represented by a red-white color. However you would have to fit models with an infrared color map and considering there is probably no tools for that(more than 3 colors and alpha channel) one would rather go with a parameter for each model that tells how "hot" it is.

Night vision in human works best with blue light (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_cell), which seems to make sense since that frequency has the most energy. It could be simulated by using the blue channel and a bit of the green channel in models. It also is a bit blurred, while infrared vision is only blurred as far as the source is blurred.

What I would find very useful when playing PS in the summer in a welllighted room is to simulate that eyes get accustomed to the darkness, when the rod cell vision kicks in. For example sitting in the well for some time could make you see better.

[StitchedChin]

...eyes a tapetum lucidum - the membrane that makes a cat's eyes shine - which would improve night vision considerably . . . but the catch is that it makes for blurrier vision. 

I like this idea, give it to some Enkis, then we can shine a light on the wall and move it around at Kada-Els and watch them all pounce on it...  oops sorry, I swear I have many Enki friends.  Would be freaky to see them at night or doing a screenshot, too.

Once this gets figured out, then maybe how vision works for different races underwater could be next...

[Velh Krome]

StitchedChin,
as for Nightvision there are in fact already more or less vague explanations to be found ingame.
Who knows, perhaps your comment isnt that far off;)

[Kaerli]

I'd figure Enkis would have inherited low-light vision abilities from their feline ancestors.  Dermorians and Dermorian-bred Ynnwn would also have good low-light vision, while Klyros and Nolthrir would be able to see underwater.


Also, read Adder's post about eye adaptation.