Bringing RP/ powerlevelling together. Suggestions please?

[Lolitra, Celorrim Purrty Twins]

I actually agree with Nikodemus - it is the game that encourages the perception of levelling...   but I also see that some will 'act out' journeys, emotions etc, where as others will only grind at the mechanics - and now and then act their characters...

Not much one can do about it really - unless one can make a better method of mech'ing the acts of players to level their skills... and there I have no ideas at all.

I love the game - I level or quest now and then...   sometimes [oocly] to gain skills/things I would have [icly] via other means..

[Mythryndel]

In my personal experience, those that read more are more imaginative than those that prefer only movies and the like. I don't feel that reading creates or produces imagination. I know that for me, my mind has a FAR more advanced special effects studio than ILM (think Star Wars). I also know plenty of people that refuse to read a book because they want to be spoon-fed a movie and reading a book is too much effort.

That being said... I agree a lot with Bamko. I am, at present, working for a Black Belt in Martial Arts. I am having to put a lot of effort in to make this happen that doesn't really feel like it has anything to do with kicking or punching, and quite frankly is a bit boring. But it is necessary to achieve what I want out of life. The same thing applies in-game to a certain extent. If you really want something, you will work the mechanics to get it, even if it doesn't feel applicable to your goals. The problem, as I see it, is that a fair number of people in-game prefer to pretend they have skills/stats they don't have and refuse to acquire. If they just RPed the stats/skills they have, there would be no problem, IMHO.

Also... If i were new to the game, reading this thread... I would be a bit stand-offish about RP. People are building it up to a point that you have to be able to write stuff of the quality of professional writers, off the top of your head to do it correctly???  I find that being polite and only asking questions or making statements my character would are sufficient for "Playing my Role". I do not need to script Shakespeare or Tolkien to be doing it "right". To my understanding neither of these authors exist in Y'liakum, so don't put so much pressure on people already worried about "doing it right".

[Dreamcrafter]

Also... If i were new to the game, reading this thread... I would be a bit stand-offish about RP. People are building it up to a point that you have to be able to write stuff of the quality of professional writers, off the top of your head to do it correctly???  I find that being polite and only asking questions or making statements my character would are sufficient for "Playing my Role". I do not need to script Shakespeare or Tolkien to be doing it "right". To my understanding neither of these authors exist in Y'liakum, so don't put so much pressure on people already worried about "doing it right".

Clearly in my literary fervor I got the wrong idea across.  I was saying that -reading- (or viewing) great literature will help inspire one to RP more interestingly.  I don't for a moment believe that I'm a Shakespeare or Tolkien, but I believe that the works of both authors inform my own writing, and by extension my role-play.  This isn't a question of "doing it correctly"; it's instead a matter of find inspiration to get your creative juices flowing so you can tell more interesting stories.  It's not a prerequisite, just a way to make things more interesting if people like.  Whether particular authors exist in Y'liakum isn't the point; rather, it's about finding inspiration through excellent literature.  I suggest reading some of the White Wolf Storytelling system's advice on how to make role-play a more memorable experience, for example--not the stuff about Vampires or Werewolves or whatnot, the stuff about how to tell an interesting story.  The point was made that reading did nothing to expand creativity, and I was merely counterpointing it.

There's no reason why you can't just be creative on your own, but some of us find that experiencing a bit of sublimity is quite the fuel for our own Muse.

[Aiwendil]

Just an idea to improve the situation. This isn't very well worked out or a final solution, but I think it could help and it is implementable at the moment without too much effort (But please correct me here if I'm wrong ).
Why not give a player the chance to create a RP character that is more powerful from the start then normal characters are. I would offer this option to players who spend a minimum amount of time in the game (As far as I know there are already timeouts like this for marriage and the advice channel) and who creates a second, third, ... character with that account. As minimum time in game for this I would suggest something like 100 in game hours or so. This character would start with much higher stats and skills (Maybe even maxed skills and one or two skills at 50). The downside side of this character would be that after some time he will be deleted again (Enough time to even make longer RPs with that char, but not enough time to make the char attractive as a base for a PL char, maybe something like 200 hours). This would allow players to create a new char for a RP and instantly use him even with the game mechanics.

Of course this wouldn't be the ideal solution for the RP vs. PL "problem", but I think it could help. I think most things that are needed for this solution are somehow already in game (Like the per char and per account timeouts or the different handling of a second char on a account (Only one char has to do the tutorial at the moment). Maybe the automatic deletion and the change of the char creation (client and server) could be a problem...but sorry, I don't know the PS sourcecode good enough ).

[Dreamcrafter]

Why not give a player the chance to create a RP character that is more powerful from the start then normal characters are. I would offer this option to players who spend a minimum amount of time in the game (As far as I know there are already timeouts like this for marriage and the advice channel) and who creates a second, third, ... character with that account. As minimum time in game for this I would suggest something like 100 in game hours or so. This character would start with much higher stats and skills (Maybe even maxed skills and one or two skills at 50). The downside side of this character would be that after some time he will be deleted again (Enough time to even make longer RPs with that char, but not enough time to make the char attractive as a base for a PL char, maybe something like 200 hours). This would allow players to create a new char for a RP and instantly use him even with the game mechanics.

I think the problem with this would be the fact that people tend to want to be able to play long-term characters.  Also, I think that this answer presupposes that it's bad to build your character up through leveling.  I'd argue that there's nothing wrong with leveling--what if your character just wants to be the greatest mage s/he can be?  Thus, the character trains day and night until whatever magic skills s/he deems necessary have been learned.  Then you can RP an experienced mage.  You have to do the work to get to where you want to be if you want to RP being at a given level of something, certainly.  You can, as many have pointed out here, RP a character who is dedicated to training but also has an interesting personality.  As long as you're RPing that persona, you're RPing.  You can be RPing while crafting, RPing while mining, or RPing while sitting around the tavern.  It's all RP.  The point is to be IC and to have fun.  I'd hope that we can be creative about making even repetitive or "boring" actions more interesting just by treating them as IC instead of OOC.  Thus, I can't enter play as an experienced mage, but I can get experience IC and -become- an experienced mage.  It's all part of the game.

[Sangwa]

The point here is not the imaginary RP vs Powerlevel fight everyone speaks about in a very unoriginal, moronic way. Power levelling is not a crime, you're supposed to raise your character if you feel like it. And RPing isn't spending the day at the tavern drinking and gambling. Even grinding is part of role play, since it's your character's training. Once and for all, if the game allows characters to be powerful, then it is consistent for characters to become powerful and therefore these characters are allowed and able to be role played.

One of the problems is that currently role play consistency is not considered in game. This means the game has no actual role play concept, since anyone can simply make believe whatever they feel like without being bothered.
Obviously some players will not see the sense in a game where you can simply type some words in your description and make it true and as such they will not engage in your type of role playing (currently when you say "role playing in PlaneShift" you actually mean "role playing the way I usually do in PlaneShift"). Another problem is that the current game mechanics entertains players away from role playing and into its "action->reward" structure and so they blindly follow.
If the game has a competent tutorial, where role playing is well defined and made use of, and if the system itself motivates role play (for example clearing out the idiotic NPC chatter that makes it like every character has to sound almost the same to be understood, making quests compatible with character-character relation, removing the need to fight to acquire all types of skill, enforcing consistent role play in the same way we enforce good behaviour and OOC chat) then we have almost everything we need to have a good role play ambience.

This is all very obvious, but at the same time pretty difficult due to plenty types of resistance.

[Aiwendil]

I think the problem with this would be the fact that people tend to want to be able to play long-term characters.  Also, I think that this answer presupposes that it's bad to build your character up through leveling.  I'd argue that there's nothing wrong with leveling--what if your character just wants to be the greatest mage s/he can be?  Thus, the character trains day and night until whatever magic skills s/he deems necessary have been learned.  Then you can RP an experienced mage.  You have to do the work to get to where you want to be if you want to RP being at a given level of something, certainly.  You can, as many have pointed out here, RP a character who is dedicated to training but also has an interesting personality.  As long as you're RPing that persona, you're RPing.  You can be RPing while crafting, RPing while mining, or RPing while sitting around the tavern.  It's all RP.  The point is to be IC and to have fun.  I'd hope that we can be creative about making even repetitive or "boring" actions more interesting just by treating them as IC instead of OOC.  Thus, I can't enter play as an experienced mage, but I can get experience IC and -become- an experienced mage.  It's all part of the game.

I don't disagree with anything you said. That's why I think it's no final solution, more just an improvement. But this would give players the chance to create a char designed for a special RP (maybe a rogue or murderer). And the players wouldn't have to fear that every other char who plays longer then a week can easily kill or catch them. And spending a month in training a char that almost surely likely will die soon after his first appearance isn't very satisfying . And of course the player should get the option to decide if his new created character will be a normal char or one of those short time chars. This still would require role players to level their long term characters (or RP all of their abilities), but at the same time allows them to use the game mechanics for short term characters.

EDIT:

The point here is not the imaginary RP vs Powerlevel fight everyone speaks about in a very unoriginal, moronic way. Power levelling is not a crime, you're supposed to raise your character if you feel like it. And RPing isn't spending the day at the tavern drinking and gambling. Even grinding is part of role play, since it's your character's training. Once and for all, if the game allows characters to be powerful, then it is consistent for characters to become powerful and therefore these characters are allowed and able to be role played.

One of the problems is that currently role play consistency is not considered in game. This means the game has no actual role play concept, since anyone can simply make believe whatever they feel like without being bothered.

The idea behind my suggestion was to allow RPs to use the game mechanics. I think this would allow much more interaction between PLers and RPers. And more interaction "could" lead to a better understanding and more respect for each other.
[EDIT2:]
I think it can be funny to RP a robbery or a murder and the hunt for the criminal afterward. And my suggestion would allow the newly, just for the crime, created character to defend himself/herself with the game mechanics. With this, RPer maybe would include PLer much more in their RPs, and PLers wouldn't stay away from RPs because both parties would use the game mechanics

[Illysia]

The only thing I can think of that could reconcile the two camps would be to make everyone RP a little and level a little. For instance, if  you really want to level, you could start off as a child or young character which will have to build up skills, but with restrictions. i.e. kids can't take on rogues and most wild animals. (that being the in character part)

On the other hand if you wanted to RP you could hand pick which specific skills you wanted your character to have and those would be the main skills of your character. (with fewer choices or chances to supplement those skills) You would start off with relatively lower skills than your character should have and you would have to work your way up to where your character is supposed to be.

In the future, there will be limits imposed which should iron out the wrinkles of the current system and PLing. i.e. klyros can't wear heavy armor, lemurs are on the delicate side, Enkis are better at combat... etc. After awhile, you will hit your character's limit and all the grinding in the world won't change it. 

[Dreamcrafter]

In the future, there will be limits imposed which should iron out the wrinkles of the current system and PLing. i.e. klyros can't wear heavy armor, lemurs are on the delicate side, Enkis are better at combat... etc. After awhile, you will hit your character's limit and all the grinding in the world won't change it. 

And in the meantime, there's nothing to stop anyone from RPing however it is they like, so there's really no reason for anyone to be upset over this that I can see.  The only thing that bugs me is when people are blatantly OOC without using [brackets] or /tells.  They talk about npc servers or quests or what-have-you, they use netspeak, etc.  That's annoying and very out of keeping with what PS is supposed to be (or at least, what PS is advertised to be).  If people are IC and leveling? Then cool.  That's what they're doing IC.  If people are OOC, even if they're socializing, then they're not RPing.  The problem isn't leveling vs. socializing.  The problem is getting people to maintain an immersive experience while doing whatever it is that they do.  I agree with what has been said before here: more experienced players should seek to help and nurture the newer players so they can be guided into more effective play-styles, compatible with the RP-oriented nature of PS.

[Scuzzle]

These types of post I assume are always started by the "rp'ers". I think it is ironic that the "powerlevelers" don't really care and are the laid back ones even though their goal is to be a bad arse and kick booty.

All joking aside, I was a "powerleveler" when I started but role play more now. In fact I don't really train at all anymore. I think everyone wants to have a strong character at first, and then that gets boring, and they either leave or start roleplaying. I for one finally figured out that I could either grind and grind until one day I could kill an ulber with one hit or win the occactional duel; or I could never train again and start roleplaying/questing/etc., and save myself several weeks/months of kill kill kill train train train.

I always roleplayed while I "powerleveled" anyway. At least the "powerlevers" seem to have a job. Isn't that more reflective of exsistance than sitting around a tavern drinking all day   Oh wait, I guess some people do that in rl as well. 

Point is, if some don't want to "roleplay" than ignore them if you don't like it. If they want to come roleplay the guy/girl that has been off on a great journey and visit the city on occasion when they are taking a break from leveling up their armor than so be it. They will not ignore you when you decide that you really want to level up your (insert skill here) and go train next to them.

[Orgonwukh]

Be careful not to mistake powerleveling for being OOC.
To come back to the topic, here is an example of how I include powerlevelling in my roleplay (or vice versa  ). One day, Orgonwukh was beating up a rogue in Ojaveda to train his dagger skill. Morla, Allola, Thidin and Zakrei came by and they all talked while Orgonwukh continued his training...

Zakrei says: Didn't you once considered daggers to be sissy ?
Orgonwukh says: I changed my way of figthing Zakrei...
Zakrei says: Quite ellegant,......, for a non Enkidukai
[Deleted some small talk about dagger quality and some IC insults between Allola and Orgonwukh.]
 Zakrei says: So why are daggers so populars, these days ?
Allola says: Because, Daggers are faster.
Allola grins.
Orgonwukh says: Because... uhm... you can hide them in your sleeves, mate?
Zakrei says: I know, but back then, when i pointed out this facts, i was called a sissy
Zakrei looks at Orgonwukh
Thidin shrugs "Maybe you were."
Orgonwukh says: Well, maybe the reason were not the daggers...
Zakrei says: I doubt that
Orgonwukh says: You sure do. *smirks*
Orgonwukh says: Hmm, I think I need to visit Nyshyn. You all know her already, eh?
Zakrei says: Yes
Orgonwukh says: Well, I am off then to visit her. She has a nice rack. *chuckles*
Zakrei says: She can show you a few things with her daggers, believe me
Allola glares at Orgonwukh.
Thidin looks at Orgonwukh and shakes her head

This is of course no profound roleplay, but it explains my char's behaviour (taining daggers although he is usually wielding sabres) ICly.

[dragnoor]

I created "Dragnoor" way back in march 2008 ? Almost maxed in 3 skills, 2 ways. And maxed in 2 skills and 1 way. So as you can see YES iam a power leveller. I'm not an RP'er.
I've read every post since my initial post. Some digressed, others were critical. This is a good thing is it not ? Clearly indicating the old saying "Send reinforcements were going over the top." Ending in - "Send 3 & 4 pence i'm going to the shop." Its human nature to diversify.
Talad only knows how I regard PL as such fun. Aye the grinding is tiresome. But I can stand alone vs almost anyone in the game & win a duel. Or fight 3 ulbers simultaneously. I can explore alone without worrying whether I'll die. This is why I enjoy the net results of PL. It gives me real tangible power to do almost anything in the game.
My literary background is somewhat limited but I know its given me insight. Nobody can challenge this. Iam an orphan bought up by the state & educated by the University of life. My saviour being the armed forces. All these things come together to form my character which I consider IC almost ALL the time.
I look on Hard core RP'ers with admiration & perplexity. I know at some point I will be maxed out & exploration/killing completed. No corner of the map will be left untouched by Dragnoor. So what then? Form a guild and declare war? Stand at a exit/entrance and challenge everyone who comes hither?
No.
I will HAVE to swallow my ignorance & learn another new skill. The art of RP. Having the ability to go and fight if asked within the storyline to do so.
My point is that RP (I dont mean that namby pamby stuff) Is my future in Yliakum.
Simply grouping with a bunch of like minded mages/warriors to go hunting Malbernauts wont cut it. I stand the risk of getting bored & leaving the game like so many others have done.
I know of players who are maxed in all ways/skills and still can RP with satisfaction & continuity. They have my respect.
The initial post asked what can we do to bring the 2 schools together ? I honestly dont know. And im not a noob i've played MMo's for over 15 years.
                                                                                       

[Bamko]

yes, but...

What about the RP-ers who pretend they are PL-ers and then expect you to play along?  You want to claim you are a master fighter, and thief and try to "attack me" using rp?  sure, no problem, let's step outside and play this out. (or do it outside, away from the guards.. and leave your auto accept on!)

what?  not willing to because you never actually got around to learning how to duel or achieve any significant skills?  Too bad. 

This is different about some skills, like picking pockets.  Just /tell the person and ask if they are willing... like maybe (you /roll 1 100 and if it rolls 95 or higher, I get 1000 tria or a minor item (not best sword... or irreplaceable items but significant item. 50-94, get that many tria, but 25-49 You catch me and demand 200 tria to let me go, and less than 24 you get 500 tria from me and I /die in scuffle (better than turning in to guards...eh?))

I may negotiate the numbers and rewards, but if close to fair, I usually play along... Maybe I will put this on my site as a guide for how to pick pockets...

But to walk up and insult and "attack someone and then not follow through because you could not fight a clacker... well, that is just silly.

in overview, no mechanics, RP it.  Mechanics exist? Play it.  Otherwise you might as well be just RPing in a chat room. (I have tried that in #planeshift, and no one seems to want to RP there, yet some might as well, how the mechanics are sneered at by the few.  I personally like the mechanics and eagerly await every upgrade!

My never to be humble opinion anyway.

[Lolitra, Celorrim Purrty Twins]

in overview, no mechanics, RP it.  Mechanics exist? Play it.  Otherwise you might as well be just RPing in a chat room.

That is so true - I started before the mechanics were sufficient to use them in RP, but never the less - I do -when I feel like it - Level now, as I don't RP what my character in Mechanics cannot do...   I must admit I regret having deleted Celorrim's character a couple of years ago - as she was maxed then...   and Lolitra is not maxed in skills as much despite being played more.   

It always seems the game crashes when I have in depth RP downtime to actually level up hehehe - but that is down to the way I like to play, not down to any one else.

[apis]

Apis is a weapons merchant and as such has had to learn weapons skills and the stats to go with them, as well as stats to be a weapons merchant, ie - strength, to carry two large leather bags of merchandise.

these were gained mostly by PLing. Is this IC or OOC? Probably a bit of both.

What I hate about the game mechanics is making a merchant do 'quests' - petty little jobs for people (NPCs) that are too lazy to walk to the next town or are so forgetful that they loose everything...

Apis, as a successful merchant (before one one of the DB cleans left him almost broke and with no merchandise), could afford to buy things like the glyphs from quests and winch access. Why does he have to do OOC running around to gain IC use of these things?