Author Topic: Bringing RP/ powerlevelling together. Suggestions please?  (Read 11898 times)

Candy

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Re: Bringing RP/ powerlevelling together. Suggestions please?
« Reply #30 on: September 08, 2008, 12:24:25 am »
Dragnoor, you don't have to be completely outmaxed to start learning to roleplay (on a side note, nor does anyone need to die or tick anyone off to start a plotline; there's more to roleplay than just fighting). In fact, in my opinion, powerlevelling and roleplay should be done at the same time. Orgonwukh's post is a good example of that.

You also don't have to have a strong literary background...it does help quite a bit, but respect for the English language and willingness to participate in storylines helps more.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2008, 12:49:07 am by Candy »
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Scuzzle

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Re: Bringing RP/ powerlevelling together. Suggestions please?
« Reply #31 on: September 08, 2008, 01:04:07 am »
You also don't have to have a strong literary background...it does help quite a bit, but respect for the English language and willingness to participate in storylines helps more.

I agree you don't have to have a strong literary background. This may be what keeps some people from roleplaying. Here is a different take on that and this might help with "bringing pl and rp'ers together"

When you want to roleplay but are not completly comfortable that you will make a mistake or mispell something don't worry about it. Using words like "ye" (side note: I hate that word) and others like "thus" and "thee" are not necessary. Talk like you do if you are not comfortable trying to come up with big fancy words or some strange dialect.

Also, spelling. You have to remember that ic your char is hearing and not reading what others are saying. As long as you come close to how something you want to say is spelled don't worry about it. In rl I might not know how to spell something but I know how to say it. When someone hears me say that word they will not in return say to me 'hey I think you spelled that wrong', right?

Words like through - threw and see - sea should be used in there correct form but just in case you do mess up, big deal. The other chars ic'ly should have heard you just fine  ;)

Roleplay and have fun, isn't that what this is all about.

Candy

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Re: Bringing RP/ powerlevelling together. Suggestions please?
« Reply #32 on: September 08, 2008, 01:27:42 am »
This is a tangent, I know, but personally I don't think there's anything wrong with using "ye" - I do it if it would sound like my character is saying it like that (she uses "you" if she's talking slowly). But, within the context of your post it seems that you mean you don't have to use flowery medieval dialogue. I agree - do it if you want to, but it isn't necessary.

It can, however, be fun to have your character use a unique vernacular. I have a child character struggles her way through bigger words, and I often spell them the way she tries to pronounce them.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2008, 01:29:30 am by Candy »
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Nikodemus

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Re: Bringing RP/ powerlevelling together. Suggestions please?
« Reply #33 on: September 08, 2008, 01:58:57 am »
I don't know maybe the so called RPers can't stand that so called PL hit the skill limits and have a game mechanics edge over the RPers :s Probably not an issue to me.
Then people wonder how to merge the two groups. I proposed more real and believable ways of the training and then noone knows how to do it i gues, to bad coz this will raise my postcount :\
So, nothing new again, but hopefully remind yourself this:
There is a problem with good RPing taking more time than PL and with miserable products compared to the latter. If PL is more time taking, the issue is decreased. (If right now someone is thinking about posting an idea about making the skiling longer by direct decreasin the skill gains, stop yourself or your ass is going to stink with fried skin) The fun need to remain the same/better. If so, if the amount of killed NPCs will decrease a lot, something else has to fill that time.
It can be awareness of something getting better in the game (like resource prices or structures, which makes advancing easier, anything but the character skills). For instance when a convoy of resources won't be robbed by local bandits and who knows, maybe player characters). When people mining the ore will have to think about taking care about the corridors and more for the earned money. And so forth
People will come to arena not to assasinate and rob the never-ending flow of gladiators, but to fight for their right, honor, reputation or money/all of these.

Is it completly unfun? I mean the real approach. Do majority of you want the common MMOG monster spawning and killing for the loot?
If you don't like it, don't really count the whole dev team realise about this by reading this topic, because it is really impossible to develop a game and at the same time read every single post people make at the forums.
You have to think and post solutions for a RP game as we want it, because you never know when someone who ca actually make your wishes happen will read your post.
Oh yeah, maybe devs already knows the way of merging PL and RPing but it is maybe a lot of developing.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2008, 02:03:08 am by Nikodemus »



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Prolix

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Re: Bringing RP/ powerlevelling together. Suggestions please?
« Reply #34 on: September 08, 2008, 03:03:48 am »
I just have to step in here and say that standing by a trainer, or elsewhere, casting magic for the sole purpose of raising your level is just wrong. This is not limited to magic of course, training your armor by standing in a swarm of critters that cannot hurt you is the same thing, There are probably other similar things I cannot think of right now. This is not playing the game to me this is gaming the mechanics. I have lost respect for more than one prominent character after seeing them do this. To me combining roleplaying with levelling demands that you only use skills when they are useful. I do understand the temptation and cannot say that I have never succumbed to it, especially in the two cases I mentioned. Magic is underpowered at low levels and takes a long time and armor training is only available via pvp if the npcs are down or not fighting back. Still I prefer to get my practice naturally. Now if you want to fight a swarm of rats that cannot hurt you to train your magic and armor at the same time it is different than just letting them attack you or repeatedly healing yourself when you are undamaged.

That is just me though, I suppose.

Scuzzle

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Re: Bringing RP/ powerlevelling together. Suggestions please?
« Reply #35 on: September 08, 2008, 06:24:58 am »
I just have to step in here and say that standing by a trainer, or elsewhere, casting magic for the sole purpose of raising your level is just wrong. This is not limited to magic of course, training your armor by standing in a swarm of critters that cannot hurt you is the same thing, There are probably other similar things I cannot think of right now. This is not playing the game to me this is gaming the mechanics. I have lost respect for more than one prominent character after seeing them do this. To me combining roleplaying with levelling demands that you only use skills when they are useful. I do understand the temptation and cannot say that I have never succumbed to it, especially in the two cases I mentioned. Magic is underpowered at low levels and takes a long time and armor training is only available via pvp if the npcs are down or not fighting back. Still I prefer to get my practice naturally. Now if you want to fight a swarm of rats that cannot hurt you to train your magic and armor at the same time it is different than just letting them attack you or repeatedly healing yourself when you are undamaged.

That is just me though, I suppose.

You have to remember that an army trains not just in war but in peacetime and usually in a safe area. Also I would assume that when they train their trainers are fairly close by. It would almost seem wrong if you didn't train next to your trainer. I guess you could always move 20 feet to the left or something  :P  Shutting up now :-X ;D

Prolix

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Re: Bringing RP/ powerlevelling together. Suggestions please?
« Reply #36 on: September 08, 2008, 05:23:45 pm »
Well this is not a new argument, certainly. Tell me though, how do you detect you did a healing spell correctly if you have no injury to cure? How do you tell your defensive wind is effective if the only things it blocks are insects? Standing by a trainer practising is taking advantage of the fact that he cannot walk away from you. For the kind of 24/7 supervision this simulates you would pay a much higher price.

In the army there is the hierarchy of trainers and training periods are spaced out.  Even at that the trainee is often left to drill unsupervised, generally in the group with other students. If you are training pvp combat does your trainer spar with you endlessly or does he eventually have better things to do?

These things are gaming the system and no amount of justification will change that. Hopefully when the system changes these things will have been taken into account.

Under the moon

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Re: Bringing RP/ powerlevelling together. Suggestions please?
« Reply #37 on: September 08, 2008, 07:41:47 pm »
Standing by a trainer practising is taking advantage of the fact that he cannot walk away from you. For the kind of 24/7 supervision this simulates you would pay a much higher price.

For the price people are paying these 'trainers', they should not only be able to stand in front of them 24/7 to train, but also be getting a massage, pedicure, extreme makeover, first class tickets on a privately owned pterosaur, three weeks vacation at the Dome Ritz, eat the finest meals available, and finally, be able to wipe their dirty boots on the trainer's backs as the trainer personally carries them around on his/her back the entire time.

Mythryndel

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Re: Bringing RP/ powerlevelling together. Suggestions please?
« Reply #38 on: September 08, 2008, 07:55:27 pm »
UTM... that is very true. A falchion is 400 trias... This is a moderate weapon that is going to be very expensive for most of the NPCs (judging from dialog with and quest given by them). My last level of magic cost me 10 times that. That was just for a single level... and I didn't need materials of any kind... just knowledge. Levrus should have retired to his VERY OWN Stalactite by now with the rates he charges.

Waoknie

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Re: Bringing RP/ powerlevelling together. Suggestions please?
« Reply #39 on: September 08, 2008, 07:56:33 pm »
Hmm.. the never ending RP/PL discussion..

  Sure, many don't like to read about the same thing or that "..there is nothing new.." so, I brought a small sample:

  Back in the days of the bugs (I mean when we were really plagued by bugs that affected the most commonly used mechanics), there used to be a problem with the furnaces. The slots were buggy and there were constant disconnections and crashes. If you happened to have something in the oven, get ready! your beloved ores and ingots may get lost.

  It happened several times to me and saw it happening very often. But that's not interesting at all.. It was outrageous! tho, funny sometimes ;).

{ No matter how angry you got while playing the ends of levels in Contra, or the thousand times you repeated actions having Mario jump over the turtle to earn 100 lives, you still did it! (there are newer games around but I love classics). That's the nature of gaming. It's pure gaming 101: Players have to suffer to get something, to feel a challenge.}

  Well, ores being lost, the first thing one would attempt once back online was to find a culprit and guess what you had to use to get them back?.. The infamous ever-hurting lame RolePlay! (ok, that was a bit out of line). AND THERE YOU HAVE IT

  Roleplay should never be considered separate from 'actions by mechanics' in PlaneShift. Tho, they may act separately, one can and should rely on the other for backup in the joy of gaming. So, if you agree, try to stop thinking of them appart.

  If you are a dev or part of the PS staff, try to think of it.. I'm not saying players shouldn't be grinded to the bones. On the contrary: THEY MUST BE GRINDED TO THE BONES LIKE IN ANY OTHER GAME. but there are ways to do it that actually encourage them to keep on. And if you believe RolePlay can be forced via settings, try to see which way you're turning the knob.. Perhaps it should be the other way. RP and PL/mechanics will either walk together or... (well, I dunno).

All 4 now..

PS. Hey! No cherrypicking! ok?

  

Sangwa

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Re: Bringing RP/ powerlevelling together. Suggestions please?
« Reply #40 on: September 22, 2008, 11:00:28 am »
Quote
in overview, no mechanics, RP it.  Mechanics exist? Play it.  Otherwise you might as well be just RPing in a chat room.
That's not it. That's certainly not it. Let me rephrase it for you: "In overview, if there are no mechanics to support an action, ask the players involved if you can role play it. Mechanics exist? Use the them to role play the action."
Do you get it?

"Mechanics" =! (is different from) "Not Role Playing". (Mechanics are simply tools, not powerleveller territory.)
"Role Playing" =! (is different from) "Make Believe". (Role Play, means you're actually following a role, the path of your character that has to abide to certain challenging rules and mechanics (hence why it's called a game). It's different from Making Believe because when you make believe, there are no rules.)
Disclaimer: This is my opinion and I can be reasoned with. I'm probably right, though.

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Serenyca

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Re: Bringing RP/ powerlevelling together. Suggestions please?
« Reply #41 on: September 22, 2008, 12:53:34 pm »
Hmm.. Back to what Prolix said...
Well this is not a new argument, certainly. Tell me though, how do you detect you did a healing spell correctly if you have no injury to cure? How do you tell your defensive wind is effective if the only things it blocks are insects?
[...]
I thought about that, but I don't think casting life infusion if you are not injured is just "gaming the mechanics". I mean, if you want to be able to give first aid in real life, you go to a first aid course. And there you practice cardiac massage and rescue breathing on a plastic puppet. How to detect if you do it correctly? Well, not from that training, certainly. The puppet isn't going to come alife, no matter how right you do it. But you do the movements repeatedly, again and again. So If you ever come into a situation where it is needed, you will hopefully remember them.
It's the same in a lot of areas. When you make your diver's license, you practise emergency reactions as well, like sharing air. Again, the purpose is to get the movement commited to memory deep enough that you will automaticly remember it if there ever is a true emergency. So I think it does make sense that you get training points for casting a spell like life infusion, even if you are not injured.

Or another example: when I started to do rock climbing, I didn't know any of the knots climbers use. After somebody told me how to do them, I bought myself a thin bit of rope that I carried with me everywhere. When I was bored, I would take it out and do the knots over and over again - even if there was no rock in sight. In the end, I could to the knots without thinking, even with my eyes closed - and next time I went climbing, I had no problems to tie into the harness, even though it was raining, so I had water in my eyes and my hands were moving clumsy because it was so cold.

Now, I'm not saying standing next to a training and casting the same spell over and over again is the thing to do (apart from the fact that that sounds really boring, anyway  :)) .
But if Seren walks back from Oja to Hydlaa and is exausted from running, why shouldn't she summon a defensive wind around herself just for practise while she takes a break? To get the words and the movements down, to make sure she will do them right when she really needs it? And by doing that every time she takes a break, I would assume her to get better at it.
I don't think doing that is so "wrong", even if there are no mosters around the spell could fend off..
« Last Edit: September 22, 2008, 01:12:03 pm by Serenyca »

khoridor

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Re: Bringing RP/ powerlevelling together. Suggestions please?
« Reply #42 on: September 23, 2008, 12:59:45 pm »
I'll come back to the original post, because I read too many digressions here; the thread being combining RP and PL, and not comparing IC and OOC. For that matter, I'll personally use RP and IC as synonyms.

Therefore, I understand the question as "How can we RP when leveling, and level when RPing?". Because you don't marry people by force (anymore), that would be the way to make 2 arguably opposite kinds of players interact. Well, first, same method for both: show them that combining is just more fun. RP your training/practice routine and it will be less of a routine, and RP your actual character, otherwise just call it storytelling.

For example, play a clumsy hopeless thief if you want to be a thief but don't get any better at it. Rob, fail, run and get mobbed and stoned or lynched everyday. Become a famous loser. And don't forget to die often. That's the point of RPing; it's not about showing off, it's about being someone you won't be in real life.

I think the tools for RPers are more accessible. Inconsistencies are only there because the game is far from complete, and players know that. One day, would-be wizards won't need to go mining anymore.

For PLers, the opportunities of RPing are a bit more scarce, or at least not that obvious to the players.
- The first opportunity to RP for a PLer is the economy. As I see it more and more player controlled, that's the way to go. Now, trading in itself is no more role-playing than socialising. How to stop all the disguised PLing that is the current market, I don't know, but I hope the Auction tab will disappear when in-game substitutes will be there (like fixed billboards, payed selling stands and taxes, illegal hawking, or whatever is planned).
- The 2nd best opportunity is player-to-player teaching. The subject is already debated elsewhere. But if no RPer levels up, that feature would be useless.
- Events are great for that purpose. Maybe GMs will design events for more PL-oriented players, meaning: where these players tend to be more often, like the arena. There would be RPing PLers anyway, to contaminate the PLers who don't really know what a role is.
- Player events would do the same. Sfmluth the wizard goes to the arena to recruit 1 or 2 bodyguards for a trip, so sets up an instant mini-tournament. Of course the competitors have to speak and RP to be chosen, for they need to be reliable. Benefit for the kid whose Doom2 teleporter accidentally brought to PS? Something valuable given by Sfmluth, and an introduction to a possible different way of playing. Benefit for Sfmluth? None, but he is a hardcore RPer, a missionary, so his suffering and expenses are worth it.
- I've never dueled, but I think this doesn't exist: when a challenge is accepted, have an open verbal phase. It can be used for prestige, taunting, whatever. PLers would surely do something with it if it can bring them some benefit for the physical contest. Along the same line, have a verbal phase when one fighter is dead, for last words, curses, final humiliation or whatever. The point is, a good RPed actual fight is more fun than a dice controlled silent fight or a RPed blah blah resolved fake fight (which is not, actually, RP).
- Can you actually run away from a duel, and get out of the challenge mode? Retreat? If not, I see that as necessary. As well as a "surrender" command. Penalties satisfy the PLer, while the RPer has more choices for his acting.
- Quests are actually an intermediate to role-play. Some quests should be famous for requiring some fighting and good reward. So famous that no new player can ignore them for more than a few hours of play. NPCs mention them, like the combat trainer when he is not even asked. Signs mention them. Players mention them openly, for they are told to spread the word. And they tell you who to go to to get the quest started. Of course, the fight part is the core, but there has to be some chat with several NPCs as well.

I know that I concentrated my attention on the fighters, but that's how I understood the post. Rising ones craft is not PLing, it's IC. Mining to become a fighter is only temporary, not a game feature.

It's good to have all sorts of players around. Doom players can't bother me, because they can't force me to fight. They may, but only if they RP first :). I find a lot of features in the game OOC, on the other hand, but I care little about it. Hydlaa is full of people, you can meet many, and many you won't talk to again. That's IC as well. It's not up to role-players to attract levelers, it's up to the game, and to players who explore all its aspects, to attract all those who don't know all the possibilities. Attract with honey. Hell, play it right, and I may even duel some day.

Candy

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Re: Bringing RP/ powerlevelling together. Suggestions please?
« Reply #43 on: September 23, 2008, 06:13:42 pm »
- I've never dueled, but I think this doesn't exist: when a challenge is accepted, have an open verbal phase. It can be used for prestige, taunting, whatever. PLers would surely do something with it if it can bring them some benefit for the physical contest. Along the same line, have a verbal phase when one fighter is dead, for last words, curses, final humiliation or whatever. The point is, a good RPed actual fight is more fun than a dice controlled silent fight or a RPed blah blah resolved fake fight (which is not, actually, RP).

- Can you actually run away from a duel, and get out of the challenge mode? Retreat? If not, I see that as necessary. As well as a "surrender" command. Penalties satisfy the PLer, while the RPer has more choices for his acting.

There is a "yield" command, where your opponent can spare your life or kill you if you use it. I think you can also use the "stop attack" shortcut. Also, sometimes people smack talk or whatever before and after the duel, too - I think that should be done more often anyway.

Personally, I'd like to have a mechanics-based duel within an RP some time, but usually my characters' opponents tend to be unleveled and roleplaying some special ability mechanics doesn't support - which I don't mind (though I would like to see less of the "/my eyes turn red" - your whole DNA would have to be altered for this to actually happen - or "/my *body part* bursts into *colour* flames" - which technically should blind them if it's the eyes and horribly disfigure the body part in question if it happens :P ). I don't whine about these things in-game, since I hate it when RP is disrupted by OOC bickering, but for once I'd like to face a baddie (yeah, I have yet to play my "evil" character) with just blades and/or regular magic. Y'know, something they'd at least have a chance of surviving, thus wouldn't have to run away from like my main character does so often.
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Liadan

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Re: Bringing RP/ powerlevelling together. Suggestions please?
« Reply #44 on: September 25, 2008, 05:35:52 am »
- I've never dueled, but I think this doesn't exist: when a challenge is accepted, have an open verbal phase. It can be used for prestige, taunting, whatever. PLers would surely do something with it if it can bring them some benefit for the physical contest. Along the same line, have a verbal phase when one fighter is dead, for last words, curses, final humiliation or whatever. The point is, a good RPed actual fight is more fun than a dice controlled silent fight or a RPed blah blah resolved fake fight (which is not, actually, RP).

- Can you actually run away from a duel, and get out of the challenge mode? Retreat? If not, I see that as necessary. As well as a "surrender" command. Penalties satisfy the PLer, while the RPer has more choices for his acting.

There is a "yield" command, where your opponent can spare your life or kill you if you use it. I think you can also use the "stop attack" shortcut. Also, sometimes people smack talk or whatever before and after the duel, too - I think that should be done more often anyway.

Personally, I'd like to have a mechanics-based duel within an RP some time, but usually my characters' opponents tend to be unleveled and roleplaying some special ability mechanics doesn't support - which I don't mind (though I would like to see less of the "/my eyes turn red" - your whole DNA would have to be altered for this to actually happen - or "/my *body part* bursts into *colour* flames" - which technically should blind them if it's the eyes and horribly disfigure the body part in question if it happens :P ). I don't whine about these things in-game, since I hate it when RP is disrupted by OOC bickering, but for once I'd like to face a baddie (yeah, I have yet to play my "evil" character) with just blades and/or regular magic. Y'know, something they'd at least have a chance of surviving, thus wouldn't have to run away from like my main character does so often.

I would have to agree with this point. Although, some might say it's equally boring to watch without the RP CGI, but what is there to say that both can't have a symbotic relationship? a good parasite doesn't kill it's host...okay, bad example, but you understand what I'm saying. Besides, if we do allow tolerance for both to be in PlaneShift together, then we could possible attract more players and also keep them. I dunno, just saying. :)