Hack and slash or Living

[Cthulu]

\"The next generation\" sounds pretty stupid. If you need a game in order to do things that you are capable of doing in person, then you are terribley crippled, and play games for all the wrong reasons.  Games are meant to be entertaining, they aren\'t supposed to present you with all the monotony of existence in digital form. While I would agree with people that a total simulation of acctual life in a video game would be neat, that impression would last for about 30 seconds, at which point I would suddenly realise that I am playing a game that serves all the function of living, only I don\'t acctually get to live, just watch my character live. Also, MMORPGs have a plot, atleat if they are made right, similar to that of a console or single player RPG, except that that plot is alot larger and nonlinear (i.e. you don\'t have to complete certain tasks in a certain order)

[Sakiro A.]

First of all, you\'re getting setting and plot confused. Setting is the world you\'re in, and it includes many things other than geographic location; it includes what\'s going on in the world, broad circumstances which are happening around you, though you\'re not necessarily involved in them. \"Plot\" is a much more specific term which basically relates to your character. Yes, this game has setting; the economy, the NPCs, the quests you can choose to take part in, the locations of the world, the history of the world, etc., but during the times there is \"plot\" would probably all be quest related. For example, your reasoning behind delivering package A to a NPC is plot. The fact that, say, an evil wizard has been oppressing the people of this would for decades and the world needs heroes to stop him is setting, unless you actually decide to become one of the heroes and get involved with this.

Aside from that, Cthulu, do you know what RPG stands for? It stands for Role Playing Game. Do you know what that means? In the very specific standpoint, it means you have the ability to define and create your character. Now, in typical linear RPGs where you have little choice with what to do other than defining stats I can understand how you can\'t see the extra dimension here: playing your own role. RPG, in the truest sense of the word, doesn\'t mean you play a role, it means you define the role. If there is nothing to a game but kill stuff and gain levels then you really can\'t define a role. Sure, you can call yourself a mage or a warrior, but in the end it\'s all the same; a guy that can kill stuff. Doi.

Basically, what I am saying is that you should be able to live out how you want to play the game. If you want to get stronger so you can kill more stuff, then so be it. But there should be much more to an MMORPG than that, like becoming a powerful politician or a rich merchant, if you so choose. It\'s not recreating our lives. It\'s making a new one, and it\'s making one unattainable or unrealistic in the real world. I\'m sorry if the simplicity or linearity of the games you\'ve played to date blinds you to the value of this.

[Cthulu]

Setting is the simple fact that things are the way they are, plot is why, there should be a laid out reason for why everything is the way it is, and that would be the plot of a game.

you say \"RPG, in the truest sense of the word, doesn\'t mean you play a role, it means you define the role.\" RPG literally means role playing game (RPG), not role defining game (RDG) , you are contridicting yourself.  In an RPG you are presented with a role that you can select, and you play said role how you see fit, you don\'t define that role, because there are bound to be people who \"define\" it in the same way as you.

Also with your last paragraph what I\'m seeing you say is that people should play MMORPGs because they failed at life. If they want to be a politician, what\'s stopping them from running for office? If they want to be a \"rich merchant\" what\'s stopping them from opening a business or creating a new invention? If this is people want to do, you are suggesting that they abadon all hope of ever doing it in reality, and instead do it in some temporary fantasy world.

Also if my opinion is so blind, then why do the most popular MMORPGs (EQ, DAoC, SB) focus on leveling and killing, and why are Quake, Unreal, and Half-Life so popular? I guess you in your infinite and unyielding wisdom are more intelligent than the large majority of the gaming population.

[Fractol]

yes i see what ya saying )

[explorer]

I find it impossible for anybody to fail in life. A mmorpg lets you experience different peoples cultures, as well as slip into another world, kinda like an interactive book.

[Cthulu]

If you re-read my post you\'ll find that I agree that no one can fail at life, but Sakiro A.\'s analogy made it seem that people who haven\'t been able to achieve goals in life as of yet should give up and pursue those goals in a game environment.

[druke]

O.K. I am listening and i am begining to see that you are both correct.  In an RPG people play for many differnt reasons, but the two very main ones are

1) Kill stuff and cast magic, like what you couldn\'t do in  
    real life

2) Immerse yourself in an alternate reality and come in
    contact with an alien culture.

Cthulu (most likely reson number 1) is one for not necisarly hack-and-slash but more like to do things she can\'t normally do in real life, killing stuff happens ot be one of those things.

Sakiro A (most likely number 2) is a dreamer type person who could probably go out and tailor something , and if you really think about man it doesn\'t make sense, you just wanna do it.

so you are both correct, its an RPG and you guys have different beliefs it\'s like arguring which christian denomination is the true one.

[Cthulu]

I\'m not clear on what you\'re saying immersion is. I\'m all for exploring areas and doing quests and the like, that kind of stuff is quite interesting. what I\'m disagreeing with is the fact that people want a game to pretty much mimic real life, which is pretty stupid. When I play an MMORPG there are more or less 5 goals I shoot for:

1) Kill every main monster
2) Gain access to and visit every zone
3) Do ample quests to develop my character
4) Meet quasi-interesting people
5) Have fun

These first 3 are thing I cannot do in the real world, and the last two are pretty much two pre-requisites/goals I hold when I do any sort of entertainment related activity.

[Mehallie]

Ok, this has gone quickly from just a discussion to insulting people who \"stupidly\" want more out of a game than killing things, and that\'s just nonsense.

Mimicing a real life is what immersion IS -it is what rp is.  You throw yourself into a role, not just merely as fighter, but as a civilisation and community.  That\'s rather the point.  It isn\'t \"stupid\", it\'s what MMORPG\'s are supposed to do.  Hence the RPG.   RPG means you act like your character, take on your alignment, answer a question in a quest not because it will get you a \"phat lewt\" item but because it\'s how your character would react (and even sometimes totally screw up the quest because that\'s what your character would do).  

There\'s nothing \"stupid\" about a game that has a different gaming style than your own; it just means you\'re playing the wrong game in the first place.  As a result, I never play first person shooters or hack-n-slashers, or even the console excuse for \"rpg\" as those aren\'t even really an rpg to my mind in the first place.  I may as well go into a forum for something like Tomb Raider and piss, moan and shout about how crap it is because I don\'t get to chat with npc\'s about the weather or take a break from killing row after row of undead things and go grab a beer in game.  What\'s the point of saying a game is stupid solely because it doesn\'t live up to my expectations, when in reality I\'m just in the wrong genre entirely?

The simplification of someone who wants to go tailoring even though it \"makes no sense\" because they\'re a \"dreamer\" is rather insulting to anyone who tradeskills.  If we want to talk about making \"no sense\", let\'s talk about playing a game for four hours at a stretch, spending an incredible amount of time and effort into planning a raid and being incredibly proud of a weapon that is in reality just a bunch of pixels on a screen, more status symbol than anything.  Why go out and kill monsters day after day - and why is that more acceptible than crafting or immersion?  People tailor, craft and quest because they WANT to and because the game has allowed them to immerse themselves into that role, just as a warrior type (who can also immerse themselves - I\'ve met plenty rping warriors as well who didn\'t just approach a game for looting/killing, but to BECOME their char for a bit) sets themselves in their roles, and neither one nor the other is less or more.

When I play immersion, I meet people who are far more than \"quasi-interesting\"...and for a mercy, they don\'t use d00d-speak either.  And yes, there are people who thinks this means \"oh look I\'m rping, therefore I must cyber\" but I can\'t be bothered with that.  

Why these big-name games have made levelling and looting important is because most of the PLAYERS don\'t understand what rpg is - the players themselves believed that loot/killing was the be all and end all, and therefore - much to the game developers chagrin - they added more and more ridiculous items and monsters, as the bottom line was to make money by keeping people in the game.

As a result, if you look really closely at all these great games you listed, you\'ll note that they\'re making sequels that more actively get back to the \"real deal\" of RPG, back to the old school.  This is the type of game that developers had wanted in the first place, but couldn\'t have sold to their backers because no-one but old school gamers remembers how to play that way anymore.  This may be a small pool of people, but they\'re the most dedicated gamers and if you appeal to them, you\'ll have them around for a long time - because no other game bothers.  

If you think that is \"stupid\" or some sort of excuse for people who can\'t do things in real life (again, rather insulting) then you\'re just playing the wrong game.   I can\'t make jewellry and I can\'t sell my tailoring wares or do foraging in real life.  I am not a ranger or a rogue - but I like to play one, and I like to really sink myself into my character.  That isn\'t stupid - and it\'s pretty insulting for someone to decide that anyone who plays in this way is stupid.  It\'s just a playing style - however, for the \"back to real immersion\" games it\'s not going to be as effective or as rewarding to just go around killing things as if you were in a first person shooter.  Period.  That isn\'t a failing of the game or of yourself - it\'s just the way of it.

If I found a game in which I only liked one particular aspect of it, and thought the rest was \"lame\", I\'d have to just acknowledge that maybe this game wasn\'t what I was looking for, and I\'d look somewhere else.  It\'s why I don\'t play EQ anymore, and it\'s why I\'m looking at these new MMORPG\'s with expectation.  But there\'s a whole lot of flinging \"lame\" \"stupid\" and similar insulting adjectives around when it comes to the RPG world - and is therefore something I tend to ignore.

All in all, however, you\'re going to play how you like, and so will I, but don\'t insult my \"stupidity\" for playing a game the way it was meant to be played in the first place.

[Aelostar]

wow....

first of all, it\'s only a game. One without real definition. anything that is \"open-ended\" like this will have it\'s devision of pro-rpg & pro-hack-n-slash.  people who develop these games allow this because they want it to specialize itself to who plays it.

second, cool beans!! i get to do professional trades on this game?!! :] . makes it more interesting. I always liked mmorpg\'s with some twist in them.

*thinks to self if THAT profession will be alive and well on this game*...hmmm, probably not .

the most important thing to remember about online games is that they are just games. if you died 150 times, it was a pixilated representation of yourself that died. if you killed a troll, it was a c++ program that was initiated when you logged on to planeshift. the mmorpg was made to enhance life, not be it.

anyways, have fun and hope to see you soon!!!

[Sakiro A.]

Thanks, Mehallie, you explained my point better than I could have.

And just to note, even though Mehallie has already somewhat covered this, I\'m sorry, Cthulu, but you still don\'t realize what an RPG is. All you see in it is the \'playing\' and \'game\' part. Understand: role does NOT mean your role as the main character. All games have a main character, cept maybe for strategy games. FPS games, adventure games, whatsuch. What defines RPGs is the fact that there is a variable difference in how you play the game. This variable is the role that you define yourself as a part of the gameplay, thus \"role playing\" game. It\'s been like this ever since RPGs started with D&D. In Final Fantasy, for example, the variable difference (read: role) is how you play with your stats to effect your game play. Unfortuantly, Final Fantasy is so linear that it\'s hardly even a true RPG. The truest kinds are based off of D&D, where you actually play as the character you define yourself, this being the variable difference in game play.

It\'s a common mistake.

[druke]

Cthulu, perhaps wee mis understand your statements, what is your iterpritation of the \"role\" in RPG

and

nice post up there Mehallie

[Cthulu]

Ok, I think throughout this debate my position has been skewed a bit, so I will plain spell it out.
Roleplaying is not bad, neither is doing tradeskills, but I most definitely think that RPing and Tradeskills should not be the focus of any game.  Let\'s use EQ as an example. I played EQ from beta up until a few months ago. When I started playing I did the whole RP route, as did many, but the simple fact was that RPing just gets plain boring. This is why EQ graduated from RP to raid/loot, not because of some mystical force that made the game inherently an evil shadow of it\'s former self.  Also doing the RP/tradeskill route, you basicly say that the people who spent hours designing the other Hack n slash-esque content, which makes up a large majority of the game, were morons and essentially wasted their time.

An RPG should be primarily focused on the Hack \'n Slash area, but it should not be that exclusively, by no means.  There should be room for side stuff, but that side stuff shouldn\'t be the focus, it should be meant as a repreive from Hacking and Slashing.

[Sakiro A.]

The reason why EQ sucked at RPing is because it simply had a very sucky setup for doing such. It had little economy, no politics, the only thing inforcing the RP was the people RPing, and as far as I can tell there were no jobs, professions, or anything like that, and if so they were probably very poorly done. EQ had absolutely no dimension to it made by the developement team, at least in an economy/politic/jobs sort of way, thus any RPing had to be entirely make believe. That\'s exactly the kind of thing that we should avoid here.

Of course, I never personally played EQ, but from what I\'ve read basically everywhere is that the only thing it\'s good for is keeping loosers from having girlfriends because they want to reach the next level.

I really don\'t know what you\'ll gain by arguing your point, anyway. You can still play however you want to play. Why do you care if some people don\'t want to hack and slash all day long? It doesn\'t mean you can\'t. All you seem to be doing is trying to limit how other people can play the game to how you\'d personally play it, which is completely nonsensical and unfair.

[Cthulu]

EQ started out doing great, and was quite an accomplishment at the time it was being produced, but there was still alot to be done. But their progress got shafted when almost the entire original Dev Team was removed and replaced by a team fresh out of college with little to no experience.

Also anyone who substitutes EQ, or any MMORPG for that matter, for life is dumb. When I played I had a job, a girlfriend, good grades, and a healthy social life, and I was still at the high end of the game.

Also my reason for defending my point is that this thread was rather full of people praising the idea of a virtual reality reality, and I wanted to make it clear that no where near everyone desires games to be this way.