Your thoughts on death and the death realm.

[Raekh]

Entrances and exits have to be more random. Maybe define 10 different locations for each, and upon dying each time have internally rolled a dice to determine where would be your spawning point over there, and the exit.
I dont know how easy is it to implement, but the tutorial already is played alone, without other players in "your" tutorial land. Perhaps it can be mixed, that way, that only entrance and exit gates are unique for each player, while everyone shares the basic Realm.

[Edig]

I dont know how easy is it to implement, but the tutorial already is played alone, without other players in "your" tutorial land. Perhaps it can be mixed, that way, that only entrance and exit gates are unique for each player, while everyone shares the basic Realm.

There was this one time I was in the tutorial, and I was supposed to kill rats, which I don't like doing, but anyway the rats were all dying, but I couldn't see who was making them all dead so I asked and this booming voice came out of no where and said, "None of your damned business."

My only point here is that some things do overlap even if we aren't aware of it. So while it may seem as if we have our very own instance of the tutorial, it's probably more like we are sharing the same instance with others, we just can't see them. 

(I've also found lots of goodies in the furnace before so I suspect we are not alone in the tuts.)

[Mythryndel]

I understand that some of the settings have been written already with regards to the death realm... but wow... there are some strong opinions concerning the DR... and I completely disagree with half of them.

I do not care how careful you are, you ARE GOING TO DIE at some point in your playing this game. This GAME should remain fun for people to play, and losing maximums  permanently because you had things go horribly wrong and died is just adding insult to injury. Literally. I fail to see where this is a good thing for the game. Trade dark way levels for max strength... fine... but not just time in the DR. On a very practical note... WHY SPEND TIME EXPANDING A PLACE THAT YOU ARE GOING TO PUNISH PEOPLE FOR VISITING? If punishing players/characters for dieing is really your intention, just let characters die and take a penalty without tormenting them first.

As to my personal opinion on the DR itself... I like it. I REALLY liked the obstacle course that was there on Halloween and would like to see it return so I might be able to finish it... The place is kinda creepy, but that is ok. I was stuck there for almost 2 hours of real time (across 3 logins) trying to get out my fist time. There was NOBODY on to help me get out until the third time I logged in. Since there are no spoilers allowed on the forums... I was almost ready to give up on PS completely. I explored everything, except trying to fall off of things, which is what landed me there in the first place. I found some, rather rude, NPCs to chat with... books to read.. places to explore, etc. I have since died several times... for quests, for training, simply to help people find the way out, test bugs, whatever. With so many reasons to go there, I find it hard to swallow the argument that death is just horribly painful and you should avoid it at all cost... I think that RL is intruding on the game for these particular arguments. If it is rare to truly die, as we know it, then I don't think the races of Y'liakum would view it the same way we do.

I do not have a problem with random locations to respawn in Y'liakum, or even the option of multiple gates to exit the DR. But i urge the Devs NOT to make things too complicated for new players. I was ready to quit PS when someone finally helped me. PLEASE do not tell me that players are helpful if you ask for help... i know this... but when so many avoid the DR at all costs, and there are only 50 people on the server... odds are petty slim of getting help in a timely fashion. Maybe make the complexity of the DR based on characters time in-game (already tracked for advisormode) or based on some stat or skill. I like the idea of randomizing the stats until the curse wears off... and by randomize, I mean truly random... 1 - <max> for each stat until the curse wears off. This may mean that you are stronger than before, but dumb as a brick... or vice versa... but it would make you very disoriented... imagine a child being able to suddenly lift 200 lbs or do calculus problems? Or a weightlifter that all of a sudden couldn't lift a can of soda. IF people play this out, I think it would have incredible potential for RP. [EDIT] Randomizing again every 5 real time minutes of the curse might make it REALLY disorienting, but not necessarily crippling if someone were carrying a few items. 5 Minutes without any potential for being able to move is much nicer than 30. This would also reduce the ability of players who got a higher than normal strength to go mine for 30 minutes until the curse wore off... for those that are vehemently anti-(plat)-miner...

Mazes and puzzles... Unless these are randomized regularly, they will be of little long term benefit as a deterrent to visiting the DR, even if I think they would be very fun/challenging.

Well... that's my 2 trias...

[Duraza]

I totally understand what your saying Mythryndel and I'd also like to point something out.

I have since died several times... for quests, for training, simply to help people find the way out, test bugs, whatever.

Those are the basic reasons most people die.

Firstly, when the game is done there won't be any bugs(hopefully). That means there won't be a need to go to DR to take care of bugs. I would think that after the game was done it would be better to have some kind of characters specifically for testing bugs that wouldn't bother the owner to be sacrificed regardless.

If DR turns into the forever moving maze that the books and NPC's talk about then it would be pointless for you to try and help anyone out. Everytime you'd enter you'd become lost yourself, possibly in an entirely different area.

To my knowledge Dark Way is really the only thing to train down there. Secondly, eventually I'm sure there will be multiple dark way masters, not just ones in DR so going down there would be pointless for training unless you were looking for some evil/Dakkru related type thing  (In which case I doubt you'd care about the penalty).

Most quests don't require someone dying. Those that do are most likely supposed to be rarely completed iin the first place. A quest is an In Character event. How many characters do you know that would risk their life to visit the death realm? Especially because technically there is the chance that you perma die instead (though that chance isn't represented by game mechancis and I'm not saying it should). If a quest says you should go to DR then the first thought for most should be: I'm not risking death(that doesn't stop you from making an alt to explore regardless).

I can bet when the game is done it won't be so easy to die unless you are silly and jump from a high place or attack what you obviously shouldn't be attacking. Besides, I don't think this whole DR weakening things means "for every hour you spend you lose energy" and it wouldn't be right away. More likely if you spend 1-2 weeks in DR then the agebound process would start. It's a slow process as well because it would probably take ingame years before going back to Yliakum would truly effect you that heavily (If you look at the NPC's that can't go back to Yliakum without the crystal eclipse they all have lived for 100s of years).

Lastly, i can bet there is a way around it. Just talk to the guy outside our own Burial Well. He's here for some reason and I can bet he's been in DR longer than most 

[Vannaka]

making the death realm more complex and maze like is a good idea, but the problem is that it's already hard for first-timers to find their way out, so if it were complex and maze like enough to give the veterans trouble the new people wouldn't stand a chance.  It's a tough balance to find.

On another note, i think it would be nice to make a large (avoidable) area of the death realm a pvp area.  I currently think killing in a pvp area is taken way too seriously, and if you do it you get lots of VERY angry tells from your victims... pvp should be fun, but to most players i guess it isn't. The death realm is supposed to be a dangerous place though, and being killed by another player in the death realm isn't nearly as inconvenient as being killed when you're not already dead, so maybe a DR pvp area can actually be fun instead of just starting huge OOC verbal assaults.

[Raa]

I have a question... When the Death Realm's all glamorous and humongous, what happens to the people who accidentally died? Or will that be ignored?

[elachlan]

I think it would be best to expand the death realm and possibly have a city in there. The city could be a home city of a new race of ghouls or something. They could worship a religion solely devoted to a death god. I would like the idea of having some sort of sanctuary protected by each of the gods or something along the lines of that. The death realm can be something more than a waste land. It can be apart of the game and people can gain a  physical deformity (Grayer hair, older face, paler skin) from being in there for prolonged periods. (maybe the new race can be deformed (or evolved however you look at it) of another race.

But definitely have a town in there. And a more permanent effect, appearance not stat wise. Anything that punishes a player permanently is kind of pointless. At some point you have to draw the line on how realistic you want this to be, and no matter how hard you try Real Life is not that same as Planeshift, so you shouldn't be trying to model it off of it.

[Gravemind]

I dunno how many of you have actually read the books in the death library, but Dakkru DOES take a little part of your soul every time you travel through the death realm.

Aside from my character's plans to form an army of Dark Way masters, kill Dakkru, and restore the old order of things where atheists and holy men alike could return from death without any kind of penalty, my ideas for the death realm have been pretty well covered in this thread

[Orgonwukh]

Generally I think the settings concerning death are quite okay. However some ideas taken from http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=30016.0:

A dramatic drop in speed would be appropriate... "running" would be reduced to normal walking speed... and "walking" would be reduced by 50% or something.

- You could be blinded for a limited amount of time.
- Your movements would be messed up (one minute you go back, when you hit the forward key, then you go left if you hit the backward key in the next minute...).
- Your chars would randomly have to throw up, cough, sneeze or shout strange things on their own.

This would show to other players, that the person is suffering from the time spent in the death realm. Movements and behaviour would be strange to all observers.

What concerns the curse:
Maybe it should be possible to reduce the effect or the time of the curse, for example by casting the healing flash on the suffering person several times. This would create the job of a healer which mabybe also might be paid.

Another idea for the curse: Aphasia
This can be implemented easily. Some examples:

1. Confusion/replacements of characters/vowels: "Hulp mu! I dun't fuul su guud!"
2. Confusion of words: "Left I just realm death the. I dizzy feel now."
3. Deletion of characters/speech sounds: "Aargh, cn anyne ndersand m?"

If you just want to discourage the use of DR as a map-shortcut I think someone did mention a good solution earlier in this thread: multiple spawnpoints. When you leave DR you could either a)go to a spawnpoint close to where you died or b)go to a random spawnpoint.

I know this would be taking from yet another game but I like what I saw in one that when you die you must make your way from where you spawn back to your dead body within a time limit to regain all lost equipment.

Just an idea the other would be to spawn where you died but I guess that would be hard on the game mechanics and the server.

I still miss something that prevents people from ignoring their char's death in general. Many just exit the map and run back to where they died as if nothing happened at all. The halved stats sometimes require to include that in roleplay (if present). But something random and hence unpredictable would make death in PS more interesting

And Morla, I know, I quoted myself again, but

It is fine to aggregate suggestions from the past [...]

[Duraza]

Just an idea the other would be to spawn where you died but I guess that would be hard on the game mechanics and the server.

I still miss something that prevents people from ignoring their char's death in general. Many just exit the map and run back to where they died as if nothing happened at all.

I think there are two key things to fixing this. Firstly, no set spawn points. You could spawn anywhere at any of the created spawn points by random, all depending on the portal you take out of death realm (And since the portals move it might not always be easy to take the 'hydlaa portal' home).

Secondly, a more massive world. Once the actual Yliakum world is bigger and there are more spawn points it will be hard to die somewhere then go back there after you just died. Not to mention a massive Death Realm would make it much harder to get back to Yliakum in the first place

[argtjs]

Here are my thoughts on the DR, I have been PS not for very long, but I have played and organized many, many (not video games) role playing games.

I'll say that DR lacks two things at the moment.

1- It is too small to be a realm.
2- It should emphasize the fact that dying is important, not just a few minutes which keeps you away from the game.

For the first part, I would add a big city, a castle, a temple, and enough activities so that the DR becomes really a place where one can roleplay all the time (I'm sure some players do that now, but there are probably extremely rare).

The second part is much more tricky. What is important to keep in mind is that people will die often, especially beginners/new players/new characters.

In a role playing game (not a video game), beginners are guided by the Game Master in order to prevent them from dying. If, by badluck, they die for whatever reasons, the GM will often allow the player to throw the dice again, or/and be relatively lenient. Moreover, no one dies in a real role playing game because of a bug (out of bound...). On the other hand, in PS, it is very different. At the beginning, it is not clear for everyone, that this or that will be dangerous, and of course, everyone will die one day or the other because of a bug.

Thus, I believe the most important thing is to try not to penalize too much/make life difficult for people dying in the case where :

- they are weak
- they are new players
- they died because of a bug.

I believe that before introducing a complex set of rules and lots of work for the dev and settings team, one should try to find a system where the above problem is solved.

For instance, one could do the following.

Based on stats/levels, when one dies, one arrives in different places of the DR, very far away from the exit for people which are strong, relatively close (as it is at the moment seems balanced to me for instance) for weak people.

As from dying from a bug, maybe one could get a script which checks when someone dies what happens. If there is an out of bounds a few minute before or after dying, then one should get automatically spawn in Hydlaa, Oja etc.. If during a fight, one should die and go to the DR.

The above points above are for me, the most important points to adress.

Now, assuming the above points to be treated, as many other people, I agree that dying should be important, and people should really understand that it is not a good thing (unless you belong to a very special group of fanatics of some religions etc...), that you should do everything t avoid it, etc.

I don't like so much the idea of a maze. It will be fun the first time, and then it will be annoying. Playing should always be fun.
One could impose on the other hand that, based on stats/level, one cannot escape the DR before a certain time, or impose a stronger curse. What is important is that people dying should be able to play and at the same time, their character should not be able to maintain a strong position in the real world. One could impose that after going into the DR, one loses a lot of social status in real life, because of the curse, diseases, or a huge drop in charisma etc...
One could also impose that if killed by a professional assassin, following a certain set of rules (given by Dakkru???) then one cannot escape the DR before a certain time. Of course, this time will not be known exactly.

Thanks to the dev and setting team (and the players) for their involvements in the game.

[Xanthan]

There seem to be a few key elements to responses here:

1) make death much nastier, with permanent effects.
2) make getting out of the death realm harder / more interesting
3) make leaving the DR take you to more places

I don't really agree with 1), at least not if the effects are permanent.

I do agree with #2, a lot.  I'd like to see it be random instead of static ideally.

#3 makes sense-- the current business of dropping different people at different spawn points seems to contradict the settings, where it is stated that there are multiple portals to particular spots.  The books and quests that take place in the death realm have a lot of interesting things in them, and I'd like to see them implemented.   The idea of the DR as simply another realm amongst many is interesting, as is the reference to the other realms we haven't seen yet.  Finally the name "planeshift" begins to make some sense, though maybe it should be RealmShift.

[khoridor]

I have to disagree with most people on one major thing here: dying is not important. Simply, because we don't die.
Calling things Death and True Death helps to the confusion.
We don't die, we are teleported to another realm and cured of all injuries. How is that supposed to be scary?
We are prevented from dying by a childish deity that plays a little game with people; a benevolent god that grants us a form a immortality and, in doing so, shapes the society with a very different notion of life.

Sure, she takes a bit of our soul when we go through... or so she says. What theologian ever speaks of souls, of afterlife, of things that really matter to us worms? Priests seem to care only about their god's biography, and their own political agenda. So they won't scare us either. We don't experience death, we experience teleportation with the possibility of pain, only which can be the real deterrent. Since the fear of pain is entirely up to RP, there is no solution here.
.
Then, once you've died a couple of times and understood how Dakkru's little game works, why would you worry? You just rush to the exit, or do your little business in the realm if you have any. If you're grateful, you have ways to show it; if she's just a tool after all, you grab her boon and rush back to your life.

Unless a game can scare the players, it has to entertain them. The DR is, and can be, nothing more than a sort of amusement park, in which it totally succeeds already, specially if the ghost train is your favorite attraction. On extending that park, I believe it best to vary the pleasures on each visit, and definitely not to force people to go through the entire realm each time. In fact, to try to reach one specific place inside the realm should be as difficult as trying to reach an exit. Difficult, or simply long; as long as traveling through Yliakum. That means that "dying" (we really should create another word for that) again in the DR should not teleport you to another "map"; away enough to confuse you, ok; back to a known spot as it happens now, ok as well, as it really is useful to the new players.

There is also the issue of why Dakkru forces us to her game. What is her exact relation to the DR? If you think of the Hades, the place exists first; Zeus' brother only inherits the position as its ruler; he didn't make the rules. Is Dakkru omnipotent in the DR? Did she create it, or did she take over the stalagmite underneath our world? Does she create everything there? Or is it shaped mostly by its inhabitants? I'm not expecting an answer, just pointing at the question. We may get some answers through time and exploration.

Finally, would it be a good idea to make it possible for characters to live in the DR? To actually settle and work there? In a city? Personally, I think not. First of all, it would take away all the "charm" of the place. Second, it would scatter the player base, and completely transform the foundations of the octarchy. For one, rogue groups would use Dakkru's realm as a base to challenge Yliakum, and I don't see why the goddess would allow that. A city, why not? But not for us; not welcoming; a ghost town where only the insane would feel at home.

[Jarexia]

I`d like to the the Death Realm bigger, but not necessarily longer.
Keep the current route through, and add perhaps one or two more...a bit of a maze, but don`t make it harder to get through. As others have said, it can be very irritating and offputting for new players.
Making it bigger for roleplaying purposes (expand the Citadel, add a Dakkru temple, more NPCs (not only "baddies"...add a ghoul village (I really like that one!) etc) would be much appreciated.

On the topic of exits and spawn points, I`m fine with there being only one exit, but perhaps instead of racial spawn points, being spawned at the temple of your chosen religion would be interesting. Talad has his temple, Lannx his/hers, Xiosia the Hidden Garden, Black Flame theirs....Dakkru worshipper could perhaps spawn at the Stoneface/Burial Well...as for athiests...ideas?

[Duraza]

On the topic of exits and spawn points, I`m fine with there being only one exit, but perhaps instead of racial spawn points, being spawned at the temple of your chosen religion would be interesting. Talad has his temple, Lannx his/hers, Xiosia the Hidden Garden, Black Flame theirs....Dakkru worshipper could perhaps spawn at the Stoneface/Burial Well...as for athiests...ideas?

I sorta like this idea. If there must be set spawn points and the gods really are supposed to have a part in bringing people back to life it would make sense. Of course, that is if it's true that the Gods have a part in bringing us back to life