RP Covenant.

[Irgendwer]

Dear Zansibar, thanks for proving my point by demonstrating, that you see this "covenant" as little more as a tool to drive people away. Your assumption, that we will have more players, if we drive the "non roleplayers" away is funny at best and demonstrates your lack of understanding, how the internet and marketing in general works.

If you have a service to offer, people don't just come running to you, because you are there. Especially, they will not magically sense, that your service is the right thing for them. Since PlaneShift doesn't advertise (at least not like Blizzard does with WoW), this game largely depends on worth of mouth advertisement. Here's the deal: Unsatisfied customers are in general about ten times more vocal then happy customers and will bad mouth your product on all channels available to them. This will keep people from even giving it a try.
Furthermore, every player you drive away is a player, that will never set a link to the planeshift homepage. Links and positive reviews are what drives visitors from one website to another (lets visitors discover new websites).

Stop even thinking, that in their heart, everyone is a hardcore roleplayer, that just needs enough lecturing on the proper use of brackets and the art of introduction to come out. Some people either can't or don't want to do this. They might have other talents though, which can greatly add to the game. Telling them in their face, that they can either subscribe to whatever doesn't make sense to them or get lost is most certainly not only ignorant, but also contra productive. My observation is (from other MMORPG), that you get about one able programmer or artist per thousand players. Now have a look at the bugtracker or the missing artwork alone and question yourself, how many issues could have been fixed, if person X hadn't been lost early due to some "roleplayers" scaring him/her away.

So to put it very short: Your assumption, that "weeding" out the current playerbase will provide a fertile grounds for growth does not only lack any basis, it is plain wrong. You don't have to take my word for it, just ask about anyone who has the least understanding about internet marketing.


And for the silly claim, which I can not hear any more, that "roleplaying" would advance this game in any way: Roleplaying does not do squat in this respect, because it is (by definition!) interacting with other people, not interacting with the game mechanics. In fact, "roleplayers" often actually try to avoid using the game mechanics. The feedback, the devs get from hourlang beermug waiving "roleplay" sessions in the tavern is practically zero, zip, null, nil, void or simply plain non existent. You add to the game, if you go out there and find creative ways to crash things (and report them), when you discover imbalances (and provide a mathscript), come up with phrases, that should trigger the NPC, maybe even a quest proposal. However, none if this is "roleplay". Strangly though, it is exactly what you do if you powerlevel (please note: RP and PL are not mutually exclusive).

[Raekh]

Sangwa,
I like your post containing both versions, yours and Marqs. Yours pointing out well the difference between player and character (which I consider pretty important), Marq's splitted more to display details.

Irgendwer,
considering your latest post... you really didnt get it, right? Why dont you create a separate thread for discussing your view on what should PlaneShift be like, and leave this one up for discussing the guidelines for roleplayers on how to roleplay?

[Mythryndel]

You seem to be the one who doesn't get it. This thread isn't about how RPers should RP... this is about what the community thinks RP should be.

[Irgendwer]

Irgendwer,
I am not sure you really got the idea. This Covenant was for providing a guideline, some agreement on the outlines of roleplaying.
PlaneShift still is some game to be welcoming roleplayers the same way as any other type of players, be it mute levellers or ooc-talking testers. Nothing is strictly enforced or mandatory.
However, if you are as itched by the presence of roleplayers as you appear to me, reconsider your tolerance, and maybe switch to another game, in case you cant stand them. After all I wouldnt join a pure FPS and then whine about people disliking any strategy element.

Yes Raekh, I am getting the point very clearly. This covenant is one of those good ideas going terribly bad. If you make a law, that you are not going to enforce, you can pretty much skip the hassle of doing it in the first place. People stick to rules as long as playing by them is less inconvinient as having to deal with the consequences. So even if you get your little pact, it will not serve any purpose, until declared mandatory, which will be pretty much the next step, once we find out, that people don't volunterly stick to it.

In the meantime we will have a lot of "boyscout roleplayers", who think that just because there is a "covenant", it is also the law and will threaten new players with reporting them to the game masters, which would result in a ban. Don't even argue with me about this point, it does happen.


I have no special dislike for "roleplay". In fact, I even enjoy it. What I don't enjoy however is when a couple of dimwits runs around and tries to "educate" everybody on what they think "the rules" are. Rules, which sometimes are as silly and pointless and contraproductive (see my stink bomb post) as having to walk with your pinky in your ear on saturday, when you wear yellow slippers. What I furthermore dislike is the idiocy of advicing people to go and play somewhere else.

[zanzibar]

Dear Zansibar, thanks for proving my point by demonstrating, that you see this "covenant" as little more as a tool to drive people away.

That's like saying that the anti-bot rules are bad because they drive people away.  Mainly, cheaters who want to use bots.

Your assumption, that we will have more players, if we drive the "non roleplayers" away is funny at best and demonstrates your lack of understanding, how the internet and marketing in general works.

Your posts demonstrate your lack of understanding of what PlaneShift is about.

Since PlaneShift doesn't advertise (at least not like Blizzard does with WoW), this game largely depends on worth of mouth advertisement.

Word of mouth, not "worth" of mouth.  And PlaneShift does a pretty good job getting noticed, because it's unique.

Here's the deal: Unsatisfied customers are in general about ten times more vocal then happy customers and ill bad mouth your product on all channels available to them.

LOL

That caused me to laugh so hard that my chest is actually in pain.  People say bad things about PlaneShift all the time and it doesn't stop people from playing.  In fact I think it just attracts more attention to the game.  Then people come here and discover there's a roleplay community, and they join.

Stop even thinking, that in their heart, everyone is a hardcore roleplayer

I don't think that.  PlaneShift isn't for everyone.  If PlaneShift changed to be for everyone, it would suck.

Now have a look at the bugtracker or the missing artwork alone and question yourself, how many issues could have been fixed, if person X hadn't been lost early due to some "roleplayers" scaring him/her away.

Dude.  The developers are among the biggest roleplayers in the community.

Roleplaying does not do squat in this respect, because it is (by definition!) interacting with other people, not interacting with the game mechanics.

And social interaction is why people fall in love with PlaneShift.

[zanzibar]

If you make a law, that you are not going to enforce, you can pretty much skip the hassle of doing it in the first place.

This much has truth.  I think that the people who agree with the covenant are already following it.

People stick to rules as long as playing by them is less inconvinient as having to deal with the consequences.

"Inconvenient".  And no, some people follow rules because they believe the rules are good.

So even if you get your little pact, it will not serve any purpose, until declared mandatory, which will be pretty much the next step, once we find out, that people don't volunterly stick to it.

Volunteerism is the reason PlaneShift exists.

What I don't enjoy however is when a couple of dimwits runs around and tries to "educate" everybody on what they think "the rules" are.

Yeah, don't you just hate that?

[khoridor]

Marqsaynt's Version (Short) ...
Marqsaynt's Version (Long) ...
Sangwa's Version ...

My problem with those (not every problem apply to every version):
- Not clearly organised. I don't see what separate basics/principles/ideals, and why an entry is put in one category instead of another.
- Fail to include many of the suggestions read through this thread.
- Address some basic concepts of RP, but don't propose ways to apply RP, specially on the PS specific issues.
- Consider that people ignore what RP is, with some patronising entries.
- Too long entries. Specially for a pool format.

I'm not sure I was clear here. So here is what I would expect at this point: I took the time to aggregate all suggestions a few page earlier; I haven't seen any new suggestion since (correct me if  missed one). I'd expect each suggestion to be taken, rewritten (if need be) to make it as short and clear as possible, then put to the poll. Then, only after the vote, spend time on writing detailed paragraphs if you really need to.

[Mythryndel]

I believe I second that Khoridor. This has gotten into details that do not need to be part of the Covenant, without even addressing the core issues... namely, WHAT IS RP. I am also getting really tired of reading the same PL vs RP crap over and over again. This Covenant is NOT about sticking it to those darn PLers who are always showing up at Kada El's... wait... they avoid that place like the plague... um... must be those PLers that hang out at the Plat mine... that you avoid like the plauge... wait... I missed something again...

Will someone please piece together something SIMPLE that goes to the basic definition of RP. I really couldn't care less about strengths vs weaknesses or any of the other stuff mentioned. Also, much to the obvious frustration of most here, I think that as long as the main tab is kept to discussing only character interaction or ps mechanics we are doing as well as can be expected from the range of players (young, old, english speakers, not-so-good english speakers, etc). Brackets may be desired, but I am not going to crucify someone for asking how they get training and omitting brackets. I think UtM's suggestion of common sense could go a long way... if only that were common on the internet.

[EDIT] #XX. If you do not want your RP interrupted start a /group and keep your conversations private. Do NOT assume things said in main will not be overheard and commented on.

[Sangwa]

The covenant is not a guide. it's not meant for you to read and learn how to role play. We have plenty of guides already, check those if you want to learn how to deal with rp problems, specific or not. The covenant exists merely to make people aware that this is a roleplay game and that you are actually supposed to roleplay and do it with respect. Afterwards people might choose to check the roleplay guides, in case they are new, or simply roleplay like they've been doing for years now.

With this in mind, and considering it is common sense to have a community that fully knows and agrees with the game concept, what do you think of the propositions I've posted?

I agree that the long version isn't very well divided and that it is also a bit restricting and, well, long. My own version is a bit long too, and not objective, true. But Marqsaynt's short version seems pretty solid and able to completely cover the Covenant role.

And Under The Moon, the purpose of an MMORPG is not to please every type of player and to allow for every type of gameplay. If that's what people are seeking they should seek other MMOGs, like hack n' slashes. We can't ever please everyone, but we can do our best to make sense. And it makes sense that everybody has to roleplay in a Role Playing Game.

[Xillix Queen of Fools]

Please choose the one or combination you wish me to poll and repost it. The Pler vs. Rper argument bores me, it's been YEARS of the same tiring crap. . .

[Sangwa]

I can do it again, but they'll drown it in drama sooner or later. I say we should just go with Marqsaynt's short version. Khoridor, could you please comment on Marqsaynt's short version alone and tell me what you think is missing? Anyone else willing do the same.

as short and clear as possible

I believe it has what you're asking. Though you can't expect it to be a guide.

[khoridor]

Marqsaynt's Version (Short)
1. This is a Massive Multiplayer Online Role Play Game (MMORPG). ...
2. Respect PlaneShift's unique game world. ...
3. Respect other Players. ...
4. Be consistent. ...
5. When in doubt ask a Game Master (GM). ...

My comment on that version is mainly that it contains nothing wrong, but nothing actually useful either. These guidelines are too general, and all players probably believe that they are already following them.
Sure, obvious things have to be written again in such a covenant, as well as the already enforced rules lectured to players in the introduction of the game, but if it was to be only that, no solution would be proposed to the occasional disagreement.
I must say I expected more player participation in the construction. Two of you came with redacted proposals, a few players poured in ideas, and there is not much response to it (apart from some sterile pedantic flooding). Still, there is enough input and material to go somewhere, and people have given examples of what can damage their game, which is, IMO, the important source.

We have to remember that the point of this is to create a poll. Therefore, there is no need yet to debate if one agrees with such or such point. There may be a need to debate over a point to clarify it, rephrase it, expand it... The redaction requires to include entries regardless of personal opinions; it's not about proposing one's ideas to be agreed with, but anyone's idea to be put to the vote. I also believe the redaction requires native English speakers, and much preferably some that are used to interaction with foreigners. It's just, after all, the ingrate task of formating others' input.

Some examples: Let's say we start with Marqsaynt's long version, which has more content.
#6 is good, for me (regardless of the fact that I agree with it or not), because it's clear and self-sufficient. The ideal entry doesn't even need to be followed by an example.
#8, on the other hand, is not clear without the underneath explanation; that would be a source of endless semantic debate instead of role debate. There must be a rephrasing that solves the issue. I'd say "Don't pretend to be an official", but I'm not satisfied with that either.
#11 contains 2 different entries, "Give your character a description", and "Books are for autobiographies"; one I would vote no, the other yes. In fact, with the current phrasing, I'd vote no for both, because books are not only for biographies. Ok, I got the actual meaning because I read the thread, but it should be clear even in the subtext.
#20 is the most cryptic of all. I only got it with an example earlier in the thread, which has been dropped since.
#2 and #12 are redundant; and not wrong, but too general to make something out of it. The text of #12, "All back-stories and character abilities should still be firmly aligned with what is known about the settings", conveys the idea better IMO.
Ok, I won't comment on all entries. I have to go anyway.

I also suggest that the general format be changed to show a simple list first, then the detail/examples text. I'll admit that I read all the first time, and stuck to the bold titles on subsequent reads. It also suits better the poll format, allows to relate entries to each other, and spot redundancies. Some ideas are close enough to be integrated into one entry only. Finally, if ideas are omitted, someone may very well come back and ask to add them; that's one more reason to use the list format. What I am personally working on, when I have time, is to grab some of those forgotten ideas and try to fuse them into something simple and clear; I chose those I feel more concerned with, for now, such as avoiding the use of figures in IC dialogs. As another example, I often read about PvP as a source of conflict of interpretation IG, but see nothing about it in the proposal; this is representative of what I called PS specifics.

I would also like to see considerations about newbies and oldbies disappear, both in game and in the current thread. How long one has played PS doesn't tell anything about one's will and abilities to follow the guidelines, to know the setting, to be entertaining, etc. For example, in game, do not consider someone is lost, or in need of technical help, until the player explicitly tells so (well, that does need some rephrasing as well). In the covenant, if entries are to aim at new players, each one should explicitly mention that objective. For example, "As a new player, you have read and agreed to the etiquette, blah blah". But to me, this covenant goes one step further: we know how to interact, and we want to interact better.

[Under the moon]

And Under The Moon, the purpose of an MMORPG is not to please every type of player and to allow for every type of gameplay. If that's what people are seeking they should seek other MMOGs, like hack n' slashes. We can't ever please everyone, but we can do our best to make sense. And it makes sense that everybody has to roleplay in a Role Playing Game.

* Under the moon gives Sangwa the Bi-Weekly Missing the Point Completely award.

The point was not to make a game for everyone to play. It was "Don't be an ass to people who don't play like you."

Despite the umpteen pages of debates, any future voting on "guidelines only", and posting of such guidelines, people are still pretty much going to play how they want to, ignoring the guidelines they don't agree with, and citing the ones they do. And yes, that means you will still have all kinds of players trying all types of ways to play the game. Textplayers, serious roleplayers, casual roleplayers, very casual roleplayers, socialites, explorers, levelers, grinders, and countless combinations and shades of gray of the above. You will still meet them, and they will still not be playing by the right rules.

It will happen. Don't be a jerk when it does.

[Marqsaynt]

Fww, this is what I get for not looking at this thread for a while. All right, let’s dive in…

First off, Sangwa I like the reworking of #4, it’s good and concise and sums things up so nicely I don’t think we even need the note attached. Also, the opening line added to the various versions seems a bit presumptuous to me and I have a feeling it may turn a few people off to the covenant. Since it is not actually an RP statute I think I’d trim that out as well. Lastly I feel the same way you do about using the mechanics as much as possible but can think of a good amount of well-respected players that do not necessarily agree. It’s a minor point and since we are aiming to represent the vast majority of PS role-players I don’t think we should necessarily keep it, especially if it has the potential to create an unnecessary rift.

Moving on to the next issue, the covenant in not being created to define role-play. The role-play in PS has so many facets and such a surprising variety of valid types that it’d be impossible to come up with one definition that would capture this and satisfy everyone. Instead, these ideas are intended to help bridge the gap between all role-players by reducing the possibility of conflict by putting everyone on the same page. Rest assured, the goal is not to create some RP Gestapo but simply remove some of the landmines inherent with interacting with a variety of role-players.

On a related note, I like UtM’s addition of using common sense. There are always exceptions to every rule and when people are no longer allowed to exercise common sense, they become slaves to the rules. The idea of catching more bees with honey than vinegar is also an important point and one that I feel is conveniently forgotten at times. Any revised version I feel should include some version of UtM’s addition(s).

Khoridor, thanks for pointing out some of the redundancies, I knew some likely existed but I just really didn’t feel like going through and finding them myself. I’m going to try and streamline things and hopefully come up with a real quality final version. On your note about the structure, I personally like the way the covenant is laid out and feel that when things have been polished and trimmed a little it will work nicely. Hopefully you’ll agree once you see the “final” product.

I should have a new version ready to be posted very soon so, hang in there friends and please keep those ideas coming!

[Ceraline]

Whilst I understand the reasoning behind some of the 'rules' I don't agree they are necessarily realistic roleplay.

Let's say for example I am playing a character who has grown up and lived in Hydlaa for over 50 years, frequenting the one and only Tavern. I see other players who have also frequented the Tavern for long periods but don't necessarily interact. In the real world it is highly likely that I would still know your names, attitudes and probably any misdemeanours through general conversation within the tavern, possibly even from the bar staff. However here due to the slowness of texting, different log in times etc. (and lack of general conversation, rumour, gossip) there is a high probability that I will never hear your name ICly or know anything about you. Personally I find this incredibly unrealistic.

In medieval times certainly you would have known almost everyone in your village or locality, their occupations, families and reputations. This would include regular travellers through your area and knowledge of people of reputation in surrounding areas and major towns. Pertinent information in your description (but keep it short!) related to your own RP, in my view, aids roleplay as long as it is reasonably known. Lack of information slows the RP to a crawl which I've witnessed so often (the 20 questions game!). A good RPer playing with you will know whether his player should know such information.

The question I raise against the 'rules' is whether every player is meant to be full of mystery as indicated by item 20. Is this really a game only for clandestine type players? This leads to questioning of 'rules' 10 and 11. If you are a character of reasonable age or reputation should you really be upset if I know your name? If you are wearing a cloak (yawn!) will I really not recognise your voice or general demeanour (and yes, I have witnessed people I've known ICly hiding behind a cloak while shouting their heads off, brandishing their usual weapons etc. and still believing they shouldn't be recognised)? In my view rules 10 and 11 need to be considered more deeply than discussed so far here, after all true RP isn't just another version of 20 questions.