Stats are treated like skills

[verden]

Stats are the basic foundation for the character. It is the differences in stats that make the characters what they are (and what they are not). Right now, stats are being treated like skills that you simply buy up. This makes no sense, unless this is being done for testing purposes.

Stat increases generally happen in other game systems as the class level of the character progresses. The increases are very small, because the stats as rolled for the character are important in preserving the balance within the system.

Stats should only be given moderate an incremental changes during the life of a character. The absolute maxed stat levels should be reserved and not obtainable by any player character under any circumstance.

[khoridor]

Agreed.

[Prolix]

max stats are not available, all you can get is max training, a GM can set theirs much higher I guess.

[verden]

Talking about the final system here, not about what trainers are in game right now or what GMs can do. The ranges involved are directly related to all other sub-systems (ideally). This affects the balance of the game on all levels. That is why they are stats.

[Illysia]

Read up on the races part of the settings and you'll see that limits are already intended. The game just hasn't gotten that far yet. 

[verden]

If we think of this based on current max in game for one stat, such as one that affects inventory space, it is clearly apparent that the numbers are getting ridiculous if we start being able to train higher. I am talking about maximums and the system as a whole, not minimums as are listed on the settings pages.

I would like to add that I am not trolling. This issue is directly related to two immediate issues: 1) This would force people to roleplay their character. 2) It is a crucial step towards a balanced system that will eliminate the issue of "grind".

[Prolix]

If 1 and 2 are all you want to do just eliminate all game mechanics and you are set. 1 isn't in the cards anyway, encourage yes, force I highly doubt. Heck you can role play now and never use most of the game mechanics.

[h34th]

The mechanics is the point here, I think. I agree, stats are being treated incorrectly.

[Mythryndel]

Based on your responses... this sounds like another gripe against those that do not sit and chat all day in-game. But I do have thoughts on this as well... so here goes.

1. Balance is required and planned. Right now there is equality, not balance between the races for simplicity.

2. Would it make the RP crowd happier if stats required practice as well? How would you implement practice for will or agility? Strength training... lift or carry heavy items. Endurance training... any run over X distance starts giving you training. Agility? Will? Intelligence? Charisma? If you can come up with a way to practice these stats... i'm all for it as it adds some realism to what is now click, click, click, click, click, find new trainer, click, click, click. Just please don't make it like weapons crafting.

2a. I think that possibly the reason stats are treated differently is to appease the RP crowd and make it less difficult for them to attain the stats they wish to role play. This is simply my theory, but if that is the case... wouldn't this kinda... i don't know... be making it even more difficult to RP the character you want to play... and adding more grinding... and thus less RP to the game?

If you have something to add to the game to make it more realistic or more fun, great. Just please do me a favor and stop trying to tweak the game just to spite the non-RPer. If someone is going to RP, they will RP even if it takes a while to warm to the concept. If they are not going to RP, no amount of game mechanics can force them to do so. You also aren't going to cause anyone who doesn't RP right now to want to interact with you when so many threads specifically gripe and complain about them.

[Duraza]

Based on your responses... this sounds like another gripe against those that do not sit and chat all day in-game. But I do have thoughts on this as well... so here goes.

1. Balance is required and planned. Right now there is equality, not balance between the races for simplicity.

2. Would it make the RP crowd happier if stats required practice as well? How would you implement practice for will or agility? Strength training... lift or carry heavy items. Endurance training... any run over X distance starts giving you training. Agility? Will? Intelligence? Charisma? If you can come up with a way to practice these stats... i'm all for it as it adds some realism to what is now click, click, click, click, click, find new trainer, click, click, click. Just please don't make it like weapons crafting.

2a. I think that possibly the reason stats are treated differently is to appease the RP crowd and make it less difficult for them to attain the stats they wish to role play. This is simply my theory, but if that is the case... wouldn't this kinda... i don't know... be making it even more difficult to RP the character you want to play... and adding more grinding... and thus less RP to the game?

Oh wow, I think this is the first time I'm quoting one of your posts because I agree Mythryndel

With that said, I'm not going back on what I usually feel. I still believe in limitations. I don't believe however that this is the way to make limits. It will only increase the amount of grinding needed to break limits or to grow stronger in your actual strengths. I know games that have you roll and get certain stats and then you basically don't get those stats to ever change. If you want to roleplay a really strong character but you fail at rolling a high enough stat what do you do?

Maxing all stats = not so great in my book. Hardly being able to level stats at all = just as bad. There has to be balance like Mythryndel said. Leveling and roleplay should go together, not one canceling out the need for the other. Just because my kran is naturally stupid doesn't mean I shouldn't be able to read my heart out to try and break the norm for intelligence. However my kran shouldn't also suddenly be super agile and charismatic.

[Nykolai Raskaniov]

I don't see why RP vs game mechanics was brought into this thread.

If I got verden correctly, what he meant was a proper correlation between Stats and Skills, not being able to buy them all. In other games, skills can be trained through constant use or with a trainer and pay money. Stats are not attainable that way but are a consequence of the player gaining enough skill points to raise a Stat.

For example, Sword skill raise should generate stat points in Strength and Endurance after a reasonable training session.

Alas the game is still in development and I know devs as well as players would like to improve the "levelling" system. Instead of making a complaint, make a wish in the appropriate subforum. Propose something better, original and it will definitely be taken into consideration.

[Mythryndel]

Right here... the original poster asserted that part of the intent was to "...force people to roleplay their character..."

If we think of this based on current max in game for one stat, such as one that affects inventory space, it is clearly apparent that the numbers are getting ridiculous if we start being able to train higher. I am talking about maximums and the system as a whole, not minimums as are listed on the settings pages.

I would like to add that I am not trolling. This issue is directly related to two immediate issues: 1) This would force people to roleplay their character. 2) It is a crucial step towards a balanced system that will eliminate the issue of "grind".

I do like the idea of using skill training to enhance stats. I would actually prefer that to finding a "trainer" for stats. How difficult would this be to implement?

[Prolix]

I think yliakum should be a capricious world where your skills and stats are assigned randomly by your god every time you log in. If you gain much favor from your god he will grant you generally higher skills/stats if you greatly displease him you will get significantly lower stats and if you have no god they change every 15 minutes real time.

[Mythryndel]

Do I hear a roleplay event in the making? Call it "The gods must be crazy"... 

[verden]

My point is the mechanics of the game. Balance starts with the stats, and ends with the stats. I believe that roleplay should follow the character, not the other way around, and that was the point of the comment. Sorry I used the term enforce, as people here have demonstrated the use of a particular word is obviously scary.

But this is a game, and a game should be fair to play. That is not limited to balance on the mathematics behind the system, but it has to start there.

I should add that -- unless stats are going to be 1000 max -- having stat numbers like 159 or 232 is going to counter-productive when it comes to finishing and balancing the other components of the system. Right now, the stats could be brought to 100 max for each, and all trainers and related systems adjusted, this would make it much easier when finally fine tuning the related systems.

This is definitely a complaint. You can move this to the wish list thread if you like, its your forum. But I cannot see this as anything other than a complaint, so I filed it appropriately.

There are endless numbers of game systems that have hashed through the math already to use as a reference for retooling the system in PS. Game mechanics of a basic nature like this have been played through, discussed, tested and run thousands of times with hundreds of different games.

My point about the stats remains a respectful complaint, keeping in mind that this could all already be worked out on paper. If it is not, I will prepare a proposal and submit it. Thank you.