a sad display

[Xillix Queen of Fools]

Play the victim of the evil overlord if you want, I doubt anyone's buying it.

[zanzibar]

There are plenty of things to achieve that don't include leveling.

But what, exactly, are they? Maybe this thread is not the best place for an answer to that. But I am sincere in asking.

Quests, guilds, exploration, roleplay events, pvp, and so on.

Keep in mind that by removing leveling, people may actually mean making it easy to max out, or changing character generation so that levels are set upon character creation, etc etc.  My main point is that PlaneShift is more than killing rogues and waiting for them to respawn so that you can kill them again, and it's more than moving iron between the furnace and the tank over and over again.

That is why using terms like "grinding" without further explanation can be misleading. Specific suggestions are easier to assess.

I've made specific suggestions about it in the past.  I don't think it was so misleading as to warrant the reaction it got, but I'll follow your advice.

@zanzibar... I'm sorry, but you are looking for reasons to be insulted here. You are not being "attacked by a staff member". I can't see where Xillix is off-the-mark in regards to your general style of commenting. You make a broad statement... which tends to be either too vague to be useful, or else inflammatory... then when people start to criticize it... you either claim that you are having words put in your mouth, that you are being attacked unfairly, or you just ignore the comments that you don't feel like addressing.

Back to your statement of PS being SOO GOOD that you could remove all leveling and still have a game... how? Get rid of stats, trainers, currency, items... and what is left? Hrm... you can go talk to NPCs... and read books... but that doesn't make a game. You can sit around and chat with people IC... great... but that also isn't a game. You can make a game of it, but that is not the same thing. Removing leveling means removing levels. You cannot "max out" if there are no levels. And it is complete BS for people to simply select the level you want to play at CC. Starting levels need some variation... but there needs to be something to achieve or it is not a "game".

I'm just reading what's posted.  And you can still have levels while also removing leveling.  One way to do it is to have levels set upon character creation.  Under the Moon once proposed this, I believe.

[verden]

Without some system of leveling there is not any game. Nobody has proposed a successful different system because it does not exist. The monsters will do more in the future and this will affect the "grind", for now they respawn in the same place and display little initiative.

The term RPG with regards to games was coined to describe games where your characters choices affect various outcomes in the storyline. Right there, is the factions system. Anything other than that is, in game terms, acting, not roleplaying.

The character creation process could be filled out a bit to add more choices that would let you produce a range of starting characters. But I don't think that anyone should hold their breath for a generation system that is going to let you created maxed characters and play them.

[zanzibar]

In all fairness, there are other ways.  One ways would be to substitute leveling with items.  You become more powerful as you get better armor and weapons.  Another way to do it would be to base the game entirely on player skill rather than character skill.  Another way to do it would be to require teamwork when taking down more powerful enemies.

I'm not saying that any of these would be better than what we currently have, but they are possible.

[Dajoji]

Then why don't we focus on finding a system that is better than the current one before we suggest that it be removed?

[Prolix]

I kind of like deus ex machina whereby some random-ish algorithm  sets your stats arbitrarily at erratic intervals.

[Mathy Stockington]

I think, imho, the difference between rp then and now is rp it more about the settings then it is about the characters that play. So the idea of a gathering between two friends to gossip is not  as appealing as it once was. Now it is about the game. Is that bad or good, wrong or right? Neither. It just means a player must know the settings very well now to role play now.

[Xillix Queen of Fools]

That's only true if rpers are actively POLICING other players' knowledge of the settings mathy.

[zanzibar]

Then why don't we focus on finding a system that is better than the current one before we suggest that it be removed?

I don't believe I suggested that leveling be removed.  All I suggested before someone blew up at me was that the grind is removed.  What I said was this:

"Yeah.  Too many people do nothing but grind mining or crafting.  It's why I want to see the grind factor removed from the game."

Basically, I want to see leveling be easier, more fun, and smoother.  I think that if it was easier for people to max out, then people would generally spend less time leveling and more time interacting with other players.  My comment wasn't about taking leveling out of the game.

[Mythryndel]

If you allow people to set levels at CC to be whatever their heart desires... then I see very little point in having levels at all. Nothing is going to set you apart from anyone else... there is no goal left to achieve... there is nowhere to go with your character. Questing is fun... sure... but outside of gaining access to a couple of different areas... and getting to know the settings better... that doesn't make PS a game. Just like RP, it is an aspect of the game... and piece... a part... but taken by itself... is not enough to be a "game".

To be fair, RP then vs now... that was not a game. RP in and of itself is not a game. This is what causes so much animosity between different factions here in PS. Players can use this game to RP and chit-chat with friends... to leave the RL behind and have grand adventures... or just to interact with others in general. These are fine uses of the game, but they do not make PS a game. PS is a game that encourages you to RP... to interact with others... but the interaction itself is not a game.

I have seen people use common things to put their hair up... like a pen or pencil. Imagine that you use a pen/pencil all the time for this purpose... and only rarely, if ever, as a writing implement. Well, the place you normally get your pens comes out with a bigger/better pen that looks really cool, and you want to continue to use it put your hair up. However, it just doesn't quite work as well... so you might suggest they take the clip off... or put a cap on instead of the clicking button so you stop getting ink on your scalp. After all, they didn't need those things before, and worked so much better to hold your hair up than this new design. This is a lot of how I see the view of PS from a lot of people who have been around for a while. It is not wrong, it is not bad. However, I think that a lot of people misunderstand the purpose of the game, just as the example misunderstands the point of a writing implement.

For the record, this is not an attempt to be snarky...

[Mathy Stockington]

I think, imho, the difference between rp then and now is rp it more about the settings then it is about the characters that play. So the idea of a gathering between two friends to gossip is not  as appealing as it once was. Now it is about the game. Is that bad or good, wrong or right? Neither. It just means a player must know the settings very well now to role play now.

That's only true if rpers are actively POLICING other players' knowledge of the settings mathy.

I ask you Xillix is this how you want role to be? Again I said it is not right or wrong. I am just asking. Thank you.

[Mythryndel]

@Mathy... I think that what Xillix is saying... is that RP is only required to be settings-focused if someone is actively trying to bring the topic around to settings. I think that a lot of people are so concerned with IC vs OOC that if you don't have at least some mention of a "settings-related topic"... you must be OOC... and the policing like this is what I got tired of... and the reason I spend, what little time I currently have to play, on Ezpcusa instead of Laanx.

[Xillix Queen of Fools]

I don't believe I suggested that leveling be removed.  All I suggested before someone blew up at me was that the grind is removed.  

Which part was me blowing up? Me calling you a cper who wants the grind removed? Me saying that the fact that you felt insulted by my saying so was "laughable?" Seriously man, I don't see how you think this is not a transparent attempt to play the victim of the evil dev. At no point did my temper raise, I am so used to this tired line of argumentation coming strictly from you that it doesn't phase me anymore. What got me to post was you trying to convince rumblebelly that the REASON no one said hello to him was CLEARLY because your doggerel was the truth of the universe.

If there is a big change in how the community acts now it is this in my view: Players used to take more responsibility for the in game experience than they do today. You can look to myself, proglin, hanix, sangwa, zanzibar, kerol, farren, satanye, zorbels, anfa, karyuu, khado, utm, and dozens of other examples that either pre-date my time or played concurrently with me for proof. I keep saying that I take responsibility for hiring several of these people to help make the game, but the rest of the rper crowd has to take their share of the responsibility for what the in game community has become and stop foisting the problems of the in game experience on the fact that we added more content and allowed people to become more powerful in game.

[Anumesa]

I don't believe I suggested that leveling be removed.  All I suggested before someone blew up at me was that the grind is removed.  What I said was this:

"Yeah.  Too many people do nothing but grind mining or crafting.  It's why I want to see the grind factor removed from the game."

Basically, I want to see leveling be easier, more fun, and smoother.  I think that if it was easier for people to max out, then people would generally spend less time leveling and more time interacting with other players.  My comment wasn't about taking leveling out of the game.

The problem with this is it all has to do with YOU. YOU see in YOUR opinion that too many people do nothing but grind mining and craft. YOU want the grind removed because YOU are personally offended by this (keep in mind that this is the impression you are giving by your incessant whining). YOU think that people would want to spend more time interacting if the grind were lessened. This all has to do with YOU....in a game full of tons of other people who each enjoy the game differently.

Well my question to YOU, Zanzibar, is what about the people who enjoy the grind? Should they have their challenge taken away because YOU are so personally offended by the current system?

My advice: Get over YOURSELF.

[zanzibar]

What got me to post was you trying to convince rumblebelly that the REASON no one said hello to him was CLEARLY because your doggerel was the truth of the universe.

I simply gave him the most likely explanation for what happened.

If there is a big change in how the community acts now it is this in my view: Players used to take more responsibility for the in game experience than they do today. You can look to myself, proglin, hanix, sangwa, zanzibar, kerol, farren, satanye, zorbels, anfa, karyuu, khado, utm, and dozens of other examples that either pre-date my time or played concurrently with me for proof. I keep saying that I take responsibility for hiring several of these people to help make the game, but the rest of the rper crowd has to take their share of the responsibility for what the in game community has become and stop foisting the problems of the in game experience on the fact that we added more content and allowed people to become more powerful in game.

I don't see anyone complaining about the addition of new content and new opportunities.  In fact I think most people were happy that new levels were opened up, since there was much demand for it before they were implemented.  Frankly, you can't say people aren't "taking responsibility" when they're actively involved in guilds, roleplays, and creating RP opportunities for other players.  In all honesty though I don't see how this connects to anything?

I don't believe I suggested that leveling be removed.  All I suggested before someone blew up at me was that the grind is removed.  What I said was this:

"Yeah.  Too many people do nothing but grind mining or crafting.  It's why I want to see the grind factor removed from the game."

Basically, I want to see leveling be easier, more fun, and smoother.  I think that if it was easier for people to max out, then people would generally spend less time leveling and more time interacting with other players.  My comment wasn't about taking leveling out of the game.

The problem with this is it all has to do with YOU. YOU see in YOUR opinion that too many people do nothing but grind mining and craft. YOU want the grind removed because YOU are personally offended by this (keep in mind that this is the impression you are giving by your incessant whining). YOU think that people would want to spend more time interacting if the grind were lessened. This all has to do with YOU....in a game full of tons of other people who each enjoy the game differently.

Well my question to YOU, Zanzibar, is what about the people who enjoy the grind? Should they have their challenge taken away because YOU are so personally offended by the current system?

My advice: Get over YOURSELF.

I'm not offended by grinding, I just think PlaneShift would be better if leveling was more fun.  And if people are quiet at Harnquist, it's because they're either working on crafting or they're busy with guildchat.  And yes, I think that people would interact with other players more often if it was easier to max out.  This is all just common sense to anyone who actually plays the game - why are you so angry about it?