Poll

Do you think we're ready for a wipe?

Yes
No

Author Topic: Wipe y/n?  (Read 76971 times)

verden

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Re: Wipe y/n?
« Reply #60 on: November 08, 2009, 12:23:21 am »
A database reset is sorely needed. Here are a few points towards a strategy for it. It is not that people who complain about doing this are "whiners" ... they are just irrelevant to the production of finished software. There will always be people to play these sorts of games, especially this one. Flame on!

http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=36209.0

ravenrise

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Re: Wipe y/n?
« Reply #61 on: November 08, 2009, 02:18:11 am »
After reading the above thread, my previous comment is retracted, as adding more mobs will address the same issue.
I say yes!


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Durwyn

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Re: Wipe y/n?
« Reply #62 on: November 08, 2009, 03:29:38 am »
In order to test further new features, its better to start anew (i play since a long time, if you ask me)
i'd be glad to test with a fresh start, without thinking about old bugs :devil:
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XF25

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Re: Wipe y/n?
« Reply #63 on: November 08, 2009, 04:14:24 am »
well i guess thats what i get for asking too much on christmas...lets wipe! :D

gaelfx

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Re: Wipe y/n?
« Reply #64 on: November 08, 2009, 04:22:05 am »
Regarding the "inevitability" of a wipe coming: if it is true that the servers must be wiped before a 1.0 release, that won't change if we are wiped now, so I don't see the validity of this argument for a wipe. If it's wiped now, it will still have to be wiped again before 1.0 so then we get to lose 2 chars that were worked on for so many hours gaining skills that will ultimately be taken away from us. That is not something I could ever look forward to in a game.

Regarding "bugged items" in the database supposedly causing some kind of corruption/slowing of the server: I don't know how the database works, but I can think of two scenarios:
1. The items are stored in a static database and each characters inventory essentially contains pointers to the database that determine what items that character has. In this case, a wipe is totally unnecessary as the database of items can be fixed without touching any of the character's actual information, since the items a character has are simply references to the list of items in the game rather than the actual items themselves. So, no wipe in that case for sure.
2. The items are generated at loot time with somewhat unique stats (which seems unlikely, or at the very least inefficient since "uniqueness" can be generated by modifiers kept in the information pertaining to the character's personal inventory while maintaining a separate database for base items as in the previous case, 1), so that the character's inventory contains the ACTUAL items, thereby making bugginess more difficult to rout. However, even in this case it should be possible to generate code to search through the character database and identify items with properties that are known to generate such bugginess and either eliminate or correct them so that they no longer generate problems. If it is NOT possible to generate code, it would have to be the case that it is unknown what causes the bugginess and hence a wipe would be useless since, over time, the same problems would simply arise once more. In this case, a wipe is probably a good temporary fix, however, it fails to strike at the core of the problem and I still feel it would be better not to do it.

Regarding Quests: I believe the same points from the above discussion of bugged items apply to this particular aspect of characters.

Regarding skills and PP: Given the amount of time that it takes to accrue certain desirable skills (metallurgy, magic, crafting, stats), I foresee a loooong period of intense competition over certain spawnpoints that could conceivably detract from the fun and friendliness of the game. As so many people vie for the same objects in the game, numerous conflicts would probably arise where many players may feel hostility towards others who are "stepping on their toes." Unless it is made easier to obtain PP (making exp. based on skill levels of the monster + base monster exp. or some such adjustment actually making more difficult monsters worth killing) and cheaper to train skills (increasing practice points for casting most spells, making better and/or cheaper mana potions, and also just generally lessening the need for mana potions during magic training), the only camaraderie would likely be at the mine where no toes can be stepped on, save for RPing the "You're mining my head!" phenomenon. Another solution would be to simply make many more spawns so that players have more space to actually train, though I don't see how this would improve things on the server at all since it puts a heavier workload on the server.

Regarding RP: A wipe would be tantamount to the world ending and (somehow) forming again. It seems to me that realism has always been a great concern to the developers and I simply can't imagine anything more unrealistic than a world-ending server wipe that doesn't serve to enhance this aspect of gameplay. Moreover, for those who want to start anew with RP, you can have up to four characters on one account, if you want to start over, go for it, but please don't force me to start over with you. That being said, I'm sure someone could come up with a viable RP story to make a server-wipe fit into the world, but who wants to?

So, clearly, the minority of players who have read this thread and I disagree with a server wipe and I feel there are many reasons for our feelings. I realize that I am being a bit selfish because I don't want to lose all my work, but I'm ok with being selfish in this way; I feel a strong connection to my character and I don't want him to suffer true death. I also realize that there might be some flaw in my above reasonings, and I honestly want people to point them out if they see them. It likely won't change my mind, as I'm rather stubborn, but I will try to be as polite as possible in any responses. Thank you for your attention, I apologize for the length of my post and I hope I have given at least a few people something to think about. :)
« Last Edit: November 08, 2009, 04:27:03 am by gaelfx »

luckeley

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Re: Wipe y/n?
« Reply #65 on: November 08, 2009, 05:00:08 am »
Excellent post gaelfx.

Akkaido Kivikar

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Re: Wipe y/n?
« Reply #66 on: November 08, 2009, 05:15:12 am »
To all those saying "I spent years training levels, don't wipe and be disconsiderate of my hard work!"

You do realise, you spent all that time playing a GAME DEMO, all that hard work amounts to nothing at all anyway? PlaneShift is only a game, and no matter what, you're not meant to be playing it to level, you're a TESTER. The game is also entirely free, there is no guarantee of server reliability and no guarantee that your account data is entirely safe from deletion.

It's like playing that awesome little Dungeon Keeper Demo, and getting grumpy because you can't save your game.

To those saying "A wipe will happen later, no need for it now."

False. What you're saying is we should retain the frazzled, bloated data so you can run around as levelled characters. You're forgetting again, your primary role in PS is as a BUG TESTER. You're trying to suggest that your wishes should come before what is best for the game. It's selfish and a silly excuse to not wipe.

The database is best tested with when clean, not bloated with inactive accounts carrying glitchy items and exorbitant figures of money.

Xillix Queen of Fools

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Re: Wipe y/n?
« Reply #67 on: November 08, 2009, 06:13:23 am »
I can say to questions of "why do it?"

-Previous Exploits
-Need to re-examine leveling mathematically.
-Need a flood of people in early leveling to balance this effectively.
-Reworking major systems (magic, factions, quests...)
-Need to re-assess training levels, what should be max, the value of time relative to fun.
-Need to re-align who trains what and where.
-many dead accounts, guilds, and guild houses.
-Clear long time players to play on the correct server
-Set clear baseline for the new rp rules on laanx.

gaelfx

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Re: Wipe y/n?
« Reply #68 on: November 08, 2009, 06:35:34 am »
I can say to questions of "why do it?"

-Previous Exploits
-Need to re-examine leveling mathematically.
-Need a flood of people in early leveling to balance this effectively.
-Reworking major systems (magic, factions, quests...)
-Need to re-assess training levels, what should be max, the value of time relative to fun.
-Need to re-align who trains what and where.
-many dead accounts, guilds, and guild houses.
-Clear long time players to play on the correct server
-Set clear baseline for the new rp rules on laanx.


-Previous exploits
I agree, this is a problem, but I don't know what these exploits specifically affected/created. If it's about money, I have no problems with losing my money. If it was item generation/duplication, that is a much trickier problem and I am unprepared to offer any thoughts about how to deal with it that would subvert a reset.

-Need to re-examine leveling mathematically.
-Need a flood of people in early leveling to balance this effectively.
Can we wait until EZPCUSA is available to the general public before we decide that this needs to be done on Fragnetics? Also, I've been waiting to make new characters once the next patch/update comes out, I don't know if others have such plans, but I am just as interested in knowing more about the early parts of the game as anyone else because it enables me to help newcomers, guild members, etc.

-Need to re-assess training levels, what should be max, the value of time relative to fun.
-Need to re-align who trains what and where.
-many dead accounts, guilds, and guild houses.
-Clear long time players to play on the correct server
-Set clear baseline for the new rp rules on laanx.
Again, I agree, but I don't see how wiping the character database furthers these goals. Dead accounts and guilds and guildhouses can be eliminated based on recent activity, as is a common practice with many web-based accounts, such that any account that does not log in at least once every six months is deleted, same for guilds and their houses.

I sincerely hope that I'm not trolling or being too terribly short-sighted, it's just that every time I think about this wipe, it gives me a sinking feeling, so I will fight it to the best of my ability. That being said, I realize it's not my decision to make and I have to respect the choices of those actually making the game, you all know more about what the game needs in order to grow towards your vision.


Akkaido Kivikar

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Re: Wipe y/n?
« Reply #69 on: November 08, 2009, 06:55:40 am »
Quote
-Set clear baseline for the new rp rules on laanx.

What he is trying to say is that he wants to get rid of the non-RPers on Laanx in one fell indiscriminate swoop. With publicised implementation of clear RP rules and guidelines for Laanx, new accounts would then have to agree to these set rules, allowing GMs more power to ban those who disrupt daily RP. Therefore, EVERYONE on Laanx is set to adhere to RP, making a fun environment for RP, rather than the split community of Laanx we have now, where we have RP-Nazis, PL-griefers, the odd troll, etc. etc.

It would also allow the Settings team to crack down not just on inactive guilds/guildhouses, but guilds that have no IC purpose, or aren't thought out and made to suit RP. Guilds such as Nexus of Devotion, gone. Anything with Dragon, Orcs, Hobgoblins, gone. Unlawful Chaotic guilds can be dealt to better, meaning guilds like Masters of Move have to shape up or ship out, or turn to secret.

Extremely beneficial, in my opinion. I put alot of work into my guild, which is not large, and I'm annoyed by the massive amount of chaotic indifferent guilds on PS which serve no RP purpose....

Time to make Laanx an RP haven on the internet. Vote 'YES' to Wipe.

ravenrise

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Re: Wipe y/n?
« Reply #70 on: November 08, 2009, 07:40:11 am »
To anyone still saying no to the wipe,
All I can say is, Stop fighting it! It is inevitable that a wipe will happen eventually, so why bother fighting it? If you are dead set against the wipe try to find a way to re-balance the game after it is wiped and posting it in an articulate way, not just posting something like, This sucks, if the game is wiped I'm going to leave. Saying this helps no one, and in the end you probably wont leave anyways, your just crowding the forums.

Vote Yes!!!


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Qter

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Re: Wipe y/n?
« Reply #71 on: November 08, 2009, 07:47:43 am »
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The game is also entirely free, there is no guarantee of server reliability and no guarantee that your account data is entirely safe from deletion

I thought this game was free as in freedom.  When I entered this game I thought I was supporting a Free Software project, not a Freeware or Demo game.

Sorry if I sound like a "whining nerd" as someone pointed out before, but I don't feel it right.  Of course devs have the right to do with this game whatever they want, but I think we as part of a community, not a beta or alpha testing game team, need to be heard and not only be reduced to a simple yes or no decision.  As Luckeley and Elady pointed out, we spent months and some even years building a character through our skills and questing.  From my point of view this would be unfortunate and as developers you could find a suitable solution to rescue at least our stats.

From now on as another poster said before I got all the fun from this game spoiled. So if this will be imminent when is going to happen? I hope never.

As community members I think we deserve some respect.

Akkaido Kivikar

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Re: Wipe y/n?
« Reply #72 on: November 08, 2009, 07:54:25 am »
The problem is alot of stat levelling has been funded by the ill economy and/or duplicated trias. Therefore it is horrendously balanced.

Do you not see? You're not meant to max 6 skills and all stats.... real people just don't do that in a lifetime.

Edit: So Qter, you expect the devs to not wipe out of "respect" when you can't respect them enough to respect that a wipe is actually necessary for PlaneShift to grow?
« Last Edit: November 08, 2009, 08:48:22 am by Akkaido Kivikar »

LigH

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Re: Wipe y/n?
« Reply #73 on: November 08, 2009, 09:05:19 am »
Definitely not.

Lolitra is not yet married, Hagarath not yet banished.

Try again afterwards...

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Akkaido Kivikar

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Re: Wipe y/n?
« Reply #74 on: November 08, 2009, 09:49:25 am »
Definitely not.

Lolitra is not yet married, Hagarath not yet banished.

Try again afterwards...

A wipe doesn't stop that RP from continuing.