Discussion about removing PP from PlaneShift

[Rigwyn]

Yes Sarva, that's exactly what I'm saying. If that is the case, then why bother having progression points for that matter since they would never be a factor ?

The problem is that you do not always get enough progression points to cover the next lesson.

Unless progression points/experience represents something concrete and tangible I would say why bother with it ?

[Irgendwer]

This is where pp breaks reality:

I'm training sword, I get theo training and I practice everything.
I go to the trainer and he says "no son, you need some more rel life experience."

I say "Alas, I shall go baketh some fine pies. Surely you shall thinketh of me as worthy of another lesson !"
I come back after practicing cooking and somehow the sword trainer now feels that I'm experienced enough for another lesson.

I know, I'm making fun of this a little, but what is experience/pp supposed to represent ?

Irl we can sometimes apply lessons from one arena of life to another, but I don't think that pp represents this very well.

What? Don't you swat flies while cooking? Insects have been getting rather big recently, so having a sword ready to kill the bugs is pretty much a must these days.

Back to topic: Why does it have to be hyper realistic? The point of the training system is not to be as real world as possible, but to cap progress so you don't waltz around in heavy armor, wielding magically enhanced battle axes after five minutes of Gameplay.

The real problem, I see with the PP system is that it does not take long time players into account (or takes them into account too much). Some people stick around for years and in order for them not to accumulate too much power (which they'll do eventually anyway), maxing chars out is/has become a tremendous effort. The only thing that has so far always been done to stop imminent godhood has been to raise the bar as needed. Of course, thats no final solution and obviously puts new players at a disadvantage (just look at how some of them struggle to kill a mere rat).

If the system was ever changed, I'd suggest using a focus based one. That is, you make decision about what type of character you want to be (crafter, mage, fighter, c(r)ook, ...) and find yourself gaining skills in the associated disciplines rather fast. However, changing your focus (by choice or through inaction), would net you dwindling skill. For example, consider a new player who wants to start a fighting career. After killing a couple of rats, his skills should be sufficient to move on to bigger beasts. Being able to kill ulbernauts should be a matter of being able to kill a dozen tefusangs first. However, that player might decide, after coming across a couple of glyphs that magic is a far more interesting (and cleaner!) way to send things to Dakkru, so instead of hacking and slashing, he starts to zap things, only to find that after another week  of playing this style, his character is completely out of training with blades and has trouble with killing trepors in non magical ways again.

[Vakachehk]

Soo...? I now can RP with PP Jorrit? PP doesn't sound real to me.

@bilbous I agree.

Shoraal I do agree that PP should be upped not so much tria though.

Honestly if they never changed PP since 0.5 I would not of posted this topic, I do like the new idea but it has had issues and it seems they are not getting ironed out, we have had that new system for nearly 5 months now that is close to half a year. Noobs need to get around 15-20 from a Diseased Rat about 2-3 from a normal Rat, those Forest things 3-5. the noob I was helping was getting beaten by that Forest thing I had to keep healing him, and also the same with a Diseased Rat.

Now on topic. Removing PP will make there be a lot more PLers, so what you have got to do is keep policing them and moving them to EZPCUSA to those who even say that they don't like to RP while on the Laanx server. I know of one that has said so on Gossip.

I also think if PP gets removed that it is actually still there for Stats only since they don't have any Practice Points, Unless something gets implemented.

[EStripus]

well that holds true for physical combat, but what about magic and armor training. Experience is awarded for casting defensive spells and using armor, but there is no PP awarded for casting defensive spells or getting hit because nothing was killed [or produced in the case of crafting].

[Geoni]

I think that the only things that should cost pp are weapons and magic, cooking, and mining. Those are the only things you get pp for using, so those are the only things that should require pp when training.

[Sarva]

Except for the PPs you get for smelting, crafting weapons, crafting shields, repairing armor and repairing weapons

[Under the moon]

Well, now one needs progressive points and practice points to improve skills. How about leaving only practice points?

Well then learning new skills would be very cheap indeed. The system right now is very nice IMHO. First you go to a trainer npc who teaches you the theory of a certain skill (like sword making). He doesn't want to do this for nothing so you pay him some money and some progression points. After that you practice.

I think it is a nice system and do not see a reason to change it.

Greetings,

Progression Points are imaginary. They do not actually exist in the game. It is not even mentioned anywhere in or out of the game what they are supposed to represent. Yet here you are, cutting them off of creatures, digging them out of dirt, and picking them out of the crumbs of your freshly baked bread. On top of that, NPCs demand these imaginary 'currency' and a ton of true money in order to pay for the privilege of going out and learning stuff on your own. Unless you count the millisecond between giving them your cash and getting permission to train as 'teaching you the theory' of the skill.

Why are they even needed at all? You could just pay for 'theory' with real money. You go train with what you were told (whatever that is in a millisecond). You learn everything your teacher told you (via maxing out the green/blue/yellow/whatever bar). You go back and say "Master, I have learned all that you have taught me. I am ready for the next lesson." He tells you to fork over more cash for the next lesson. Ba da bing, done.

The only issue with getting rid of PP is that you can pay for things like strength outright without ever having to train them, so you could buy a max level in one day with enough money. That is a flaw in the system, and PP are the flawed plug to fill that hole. PP over-complicate what should be a rather simple system with redundant and useless points that are completely un-roleplayable.

I don't see how in the world getting rid of PP would make more PLers when you HAVE to grind to get them. 'Getting' things is why powerlevelers do what they do. They are something that encourages PLing.

Ok, you want to slow down PLers? Don't do it with artificial and imaginary points that the roleplayers can't even use. Make a simple solution.... wait for it....

Slow training down by limiting how much you can train in a day.

"You can not train anymore today, your body/mind is exhausted."

Seems like a real no-brainer for a game based on rolepaying.

[kaerli2]

PP need to go.  They don't make sense looking at the game from an "inside out" view, as Rigwyn and UtM have pointed out.  What should happen is that a) theory and practice are swapped for stats, this solves people being able to PL stats in 1 day (i.e. stats are all practice and no theory, instead of all theory and no practice) and b) the Training costs be per-lesson as opposed to per-PP, and rebalanced accordingly.  Also, people forget that it makes IC sense to grind in some cases (Kaerli, for instance: I don't train her OOCly near as much as she trains ICly).

[Earowo]

No, you buy training ( knowledge )
You train, physically bashing stuff until the bar fills up.

It make sense up this this point.
I should now be ready for my next lesson, right ?

If I do not have enough progression points at this point, then I cannot progress.
But I already practiced with the sword mastering the last lesson. Why should I need more progression points ?
This does not make sense to me.

What does a progression point ( or experience for that matter ) represent ?
If I go do something unrelated, like melt some ore (getting pp) then why should that make me ready for the next lesson ?

it would make more sense if you got theoretical training first ( as we currently do)
Then go physically train until the bar is filled (as we currently do )
At this point one should be ready for more theoretical training.

If you have an overage of pp as I do then you would not notice this at all.
But if you have less pp than needed, it becomes noticable.

if the game went along with what this is implying, then there would have to be a sperate catagory of pp for each and every type of skill, hich would make things even harder then they already are....
i prefer the way it is now, the only reason this whole discussion got brought up at all is becuase of how flawd the pp gaining system currently is, it will get better soon im sure so i just say wait it out...

[weltall]

well that holds true for physical combat, but what about magic and armor training. Experience is awarded for casting defensive spells and using armor, but there is no PP awarded for casting defensive spells or getting hit because nothing was killed [or produced in the case of crafting].

except that's not playing the game as intended: flodding magic and sitting being hit while doing something else is exactly how the game isn't intended to be played

waiting in a game is stupid imho

[Earowo]

imho

whats an imho -_-

[Sarras Volcae]

under the moon pointed out something i've said many times over that no one else seems to understand. it's the hard time training--the pp problem--that causes powerlevelling. making it harder to level is actually worse for roleplaying. and i'm pretty sure the developers made it harder to level to keep people roleplaying. it just doesn't work out that way.

pp sucks

earowo, imho = in my honest opinion. look it up next time. :p

[khoridor]

if the game went along with what this is implying, then there would have to be a sperate catagory of pp for each and every type of skill, hich would make things even harder then they already are....
i prefer the way it is now, the only reason this whole discussion got brought up at all is becuase of how flawd the pp gaining system currently is, it will get better soon im sure so i just say wait it out...

No there is no need for separate categories.
As explained, you already fill each bar by practicing; these are your specialised progress bars. PP are redundant for skills.
All PPs are useful for is Stats training. So getting rid of PPs means designing a solution for Stats progression. That's where ideas are welcome in this thread, to add to the ones that were already given.

No much time to think about it, but I'd see some automatic progression of Stats according to Skills, personally. Or to activities, if that doesn't become too complicate. I'd get rid of the muscle and brain teachers.

[Yaniel]

I'd get rid of the muscle and brain teachers.

Yeah, that's another bad thing imho: strength is practically increased by TALKING?
 -> keep spamming the gossip channel, that way you will soon be able to wear platinum armor 

I would have guessed strength increases while doing physically hard work.

[EStripus]

I believe in theory the number of PPs you earn while gaining your practice in a skill should be enough to cover the cost of the next level of training in that skill. So by the time you have killed enough things with your sword to be ready for the next level of sword training you should have gotten enough PPs will using your sword to cover the cost in Pps of that next level of sword training.

well that holds true for physical combat, but what about magic and armor training. Experience is awarded for casting defensive spells and using armor, but there is no PP awarded for casting defensive spells or getting hit because nothing was killed [or produced in the case of crafting].

except that's not playing the game as intended: flodding magic and sitting being hit while doing something else is exactly how the game isn't intended to be played

waiting in a game is stupid imho

@ weltall: hmmm, my thought process was going a different way, but I see where you are coming from, I think. So, your thought supports the use of PP.  IF someone stands and grinds defensive spells (or armor) and get their practice points up to the next level, then that does not automatically mean they can train [as Sarva suggested with her sword example]. They would also need to have the PP and the tria to receive more training.  So basically the PP is just one more game mechanic the player needs to consider when deciding how to develop their character.

For those that are confused by needing PP to train stats [not skills]. If you have a good idea of how to emulate progressive physical training, academic tests, and common sense in the game feel free to put it in the wish list. Until then, availability of PP is the gauge for improving your characters' strength, intelligence, wisdom, etc. OMG! that once again means you have to make decisions about how to develop your character at low levels.

All long time players of any game are going to be high levels and have multiple skills, it is unavoidable, so stop blaming the PP system!!

I've never had a problem with the PP system. The devs have developed a three prong system for players to negotiate leveling their characters. Players can deal with it or find another game. IMHO, my character is at medium level of development, the refactoring of mob PP has leveled out nicely. I've played for 1.5 years now and do not feel inferior that I don't have any skills maxed. So stop worrying about whether PP limits how fast you can level your skills. Enjoy the pursuit of excellence. It's a GAME, I have come to realize who cares if PP has a comparison in reality.

A note for RPers on Laanx: If you have earned all the PP to be able to max the skill levels you can dream of, then remember to not play an all powerful character that never makes mistakes. It is a buzz kill and an event killer when someone whines, "but my skill is maxed, you can't...."