Discussion about removing PP from PlaneShift

[Sarva]

Back a while ago I started a new character just to see how hard it is to start a character from scratch. I had the extra handicap of having my new character skip the tutorial so I had no trias, no Pps and no items to start out with.  I am not giving this character any help from any of my other characters.

Before the most recent adjustment to PPs I was getting almost nothing from fighting. I was getting lots of Pps from a certain craft. Grind fighting or crafting doesn't really make much difference to me. My bigger problem is getting the trias I need to pay for training. Now after the most recent Pp adjustment I am getting more Pps from fighting but I can still get  a lot of Pps from practicing certain crafts.  I am finding I need to make judgements about what skills and stats I want to train since I don't have enough trias or PPs to just train everything I might want to. This isn't a bad thing though since it is making me think more about what type of character I want to have and think about what skills/stats this character would work on to further their goals.

[Lhaa]

[...] for a game based on rolepaying.

XD
Sorry, that one made me laugh.

[Sarras Volcae]

estripus, you say people should just deal with it or leave? well, i guess that's why the player base is so tiny!

[Vakachehk]

lol first time I've agreed with Sarras I do blame PP for the lack of players. SOOO! this is under beta/alpha (get confused between them) testing so take it out see what happens with the player community and if it increases with players (role players) then keep it out. But if it doesn't and we get a lot more PLers then change it back. But you will have to try it out for about a year, because if you try it for 1-6 months everyone will be PLing to get to where they want.

Also I want a few characters to begin running some guilds to fix certain things in PS. I cant just have someone who is weak and dumb to run a guild can I?

[kaerli2]

A note for RPers on Laanx: If you have earned all the PP to be able to max the skill levels you can dream of, then remember to not play an all powerful character that never makes mistakes. It is a buzz kill and an event killer when someone whines, "but my skill is maxed, you can't...."

On Kaerli, I have racked up nearly 35k PP.  Guess what?  Kaerli will probably never spend all her PP!  This is due to her limited income; I strongly suspect it is true for most characters (besides ones that are still rolling in dough from the last plat rush, ofc).  Honestly, I play Kaerli's swordplay well below where it should be (I reckon her final Sword skill will end up in the 150-175 range), and she still turns out to be quite an overpowering fighter.  She isn't all powerful though: 90 CHA is a pretty strong counterbalance on the stats side, and she doesn't craft for much of anything either.

[Rigwyn]

You really think removing pp would affect the playerbase ?
No, people won't come back because of pp.

People left en masse because of trouble with the upgrade - period.
The last time I remember people leaving like this was a year or two ago when the server was down for over a week.

After a week or so of not playing, the "planeshift addiction" wears off, you become out of tough with
The game, and then quitting for good isn't such a big deal.

[EStripus]

This is a hypothetical conversation of a what could be said by a trainer [percival was chosen at random] to justify the lack of PP for a skill.  This was one thought that can be easily adapted for any skill trainer. PP can be justified as the exploration and experimentation of how to apply and combine the 'new knowledge' with the 'old knowledge'. The practice points are practicing the specific latest technique.

Sarrel: Percival, I finished my sword practice, can you give me the next lesson please?
 * Sarrel hands Percival sufficient coin to cover the lesson
 Percival: No, you cannot have the next lesson.
Sarrel: But I finished my practice and I have enough Tria to pay for the lesson!

[00:01] <HTT-Bird> Emmara look at it from a "character's eye view"...also, try coming up with something for Percival to say next
[00:06] <Emmara> *thinking* ok got a response to justify PP.

Percival: You have shown me your dedication to your physical ability, but I don't believe you understand the philosophy behind the techniques.  If you do not understand the philosophy behind the techniques then you will not understand how to combine them with my next lesson to continue your path to be a true warrior.

FYI: I still have no issues with the PP system, but since everyone is calling for a 'realistic' justification for a fantasy game's mechanics.  

[Earowo]

(I reckon her final Sword skill will end up in the 150-175 range),

good luck with that one, sword maxes at 100
you wont get to that goal unless your a gm or dev XD

[Rigwyn]

How should kaerli's final sword skill be in the 150-175 range ?
What the hell is this ? LOL ?

[Shoraal]

Actually Sarva' last post sums it up nicely... after NPC-revamp and crafting etc. re-pricing PP wise, I think it is fairly easy to get the required PP... the tria is far more the problem, as if you play IC RP-wise correctly, some concepts will have a hell of trouble getting that... and it can't be "desired" that everybody learns mining/crafting "just because".
I guess the prices of the "older" loot items need to be raised drastically - such as tefu or ulber parts, e.g. (the parts of the newer critters are priced more or less right I'd say, such as Arangma parts).

I might make that a feature request...

[Lhaa]

How should kaerli's final sword skill be in the 150-175 range ?
What the hell is this ? LOL ?

You've just been pwned by Kaerli's little finger.

[Lolitra, Celorrim Purrty Twins]

Lolitra settles down to give her meagre tuppenth's worth of an idea.

Where as I think the current system is actually rather good; you get experience for individual skills as you use them and PP for each successful out-come of its use dependant on how difficult it was for your character to do... [i.e. if you are low skilled you get more pp for success in a low level skill use - than if you are high level skilled and use the same low level skill]
So then you can progress to the next level by getting a trainer at a cost, to teach you what you must do for the next level.  This cost being Tria and PP.
I like the fact that PP can be used for different skills - but Experience Points [EP] cannot.  PP represent your confidence, learning ability and adeptness at retaining new information in my oppinion so, yes, why can't learning new cooking techniques help with sword-play?  It may be that as you contemplate the finer details of baking your mind suddenly realises what you are doing wrong with your sword training...

That said, I would love to see the following way of cause and effect in training and fighting etc.

Stats would limit how fast you understand or progress in relevant skills... and injuries to the head or physical would effect how your skills are executed [possibly already happens - but I am not sure].

To improve intelligence - reading books - and magic would enable intelligence to grow...
To improve Strength - physical skills and moving with heavy loads/encombered would help...


I would like to see each skill having different methods of doing things not unlike like 'spells' for each level for instance in sword skill, swing, thrust, parry, etc and then as you go up level you can learn from the teachers to 'combine them to form quicker and more effective moves...  This would make PvP far more intuative and fun and also give a more realistic balance to it rather than relying on just stats and chance.

I would also like to see player characters able to obtain a teaching skill - that enables you to teach up to half your level in skill in skills  - and to stop it being abused, to teach you must pay tax to the Octarchy for each pupil you train... so there is a base price you have to pay [perhaps a little less than than the NPC's]  so the only advantage would be being able to find your trainer or have them travel with you?

Another thing I would like to see is the ability to learn off of NPC's you defeat extra 'spells' or 'skill moves' if you defeat them in battle - depending on how intellegent you are.

there... what do you think?

[Rigwyn]

I play Kaerli's swordplay well below where it should be (I reckon her final Sword skill will end up in the 150-175 range), and she still turns out to be quite an overpowering fighter.

No offense, but when you godmod like this the rp turns into something like this and people no longer want to play with you because its not much fun - even if you play weak alts so that people can defeat them... 

Bill: [You cant possibly kill me because I have armor made by Laanx herself.]
Sally: [Are you on crack ? There's no such thing]
Bill: [Ok, dont worry about the armor .. lets continue]
Sally swings a sword at Bill's head
Bill ducks and swings at Sally's left side with a claymore, right side with a battle axe, and kicks at Sally at the same time with a boot that has 3 inch steel spikes on the bottom.
Sally: [ come on, this is getting stupid. are we 6 years old or something ? ]
Bill: [ Bill always wears spiked boot for extra traction, and he is ambidextrous. Oh, and the other boot has spikes too which is why bill is not off balance ]
Sally jumps and blocks one sword while taking a serious cut from the other (left arm cut badly)
Bill: [ if I were to stick you in the throat now, would you die?]
Sally: [ you might not succede.. just play the game ]
Bill: [ what if I swung at your torso, would that kill you?]
Sally[ yeah.. whatever]
Bill swings the axe at Sally's torso
Sally blocks the axe angrily and spits in Bill's direction
Bill: [ My axe skill is 1375 based on training which I have yet to complete due to limitations to the game's mechanics. That blow would have killed you ]
Sally[ Oh yeah, well my red way skill should be 3000 by now because I'm wearing a flaming amulet of wicked oxidization ]
Bill: [ Oh yeah, well I'm immune to fire because I defeated Xyp4ugh  3  years ago ]
Sally: [ fine, lets just get this over so I can rp with someone who's sane ]
Sally lays on the ground gasping for breath. She grabs onto her prized brown way glyphs and in her last breath casts flying stones at Bill. She smiles knowing that she is a master in the art of brown way]
Bill gets hit by a tiny pebble and then begins to search Sally's body for stuff.
Bill: [ what do you have in your inventory]
Sally: [ here's 10 circles now go away ]
Bill: [ Thats all ? I think bill would be able to find more if he were to really search you. He should at least be able to get a glyph or a sword ]
Sally: [ My body and belongings have vanished .. you just dont see it yet due to graphics limitations. please go find a friend ]
Bill: [ Well, technically it should take much longer.. like days. Bill should be able to pick you clean. ]

Now back on topic .. I think the system is fine the way it is. Im just saying that pp system is a little awkward. I do like how with crafting one needs to have both an item specific skill ( ie axe making ) and a general skill ( blacksmithing). Since blacksmithing is shared with other skills it does allow one's traning to support another similar form of training. This simulates the synergy that is found when traning multiple skills better then pp does.

[RlyDontKnow]

Percival: You have shown me your dedication to your physical ability, but I don't believe you understand the philosophy behind the techniques.  If you do not understand the philosophy behind the techniques then you will not understand how to combine them with my next lesson to continue your path to be a true warrior.

now that's an explanation I really like so far I thought of PPs a bit different ICly. I thought of it as some kind of "making up your mind" as that's something at least I need very regularily irl. e.g. after studying a while and advancing a lot, you just have to do something else or something already well known for a while to make up your mind and relax a bit. That's something PP match for me game mechanics wise. it doesn't really matter what you do, just do something to slow down a bit 

as for why PP are important as part of training imo: after the rebalancing of how much PP you get, etc., it won't really affect normal players. I tried it out with a fresh character, a somewhat advanced one (only some stats raised) and my high up one (stats maxed, sword/HA 100, one magic way at 100, 2 at 60, ...) and didn't have any issues collecting PP with any of them. actually I get far more PP than I need. however it does balance PLers out quite a bit. e.g. just training magic by casting the same spell over and over without using it to kill others, hitting that monster that can't fight back with q1 swords to get as many practice as possible, etc. I guess everyone playing for more than a year knows those kinds of training.

the issues that were outlined here as for not getting enough PP as starter aren't really an issue with the system, but are a result of the vast amount of changes recently imo. e.g. many players aren't very familiar with the new exp formula and therefore fail at picking the right monsters to kill, etc.

I do agree there are issues, but those won't be easily resolved by just removing PPs completely. also replacing the PP system with something very complex won't make things better, they'd just get worst I think. so to sum it up: it works as it is now, why make a very big change that is very likely to cause many new issues while there are still some more important things to be tackled atm?

[Vakachehk]

Actually Sarva' last post sums it up nicely... after NPC-revamp and crafting etc. re-pricing PP wise, I think it is fairly easy to get the required PP... the tria is far more the problem, as if you play IC RP-wise correctly, some concepts will have a hell of trouble getting that.

PP is easier than tria!!!
Tell me your secrete and I'll tell you one way to get good tria fast. Remember your secret must be valid for a noob
Well I do not think PP is set right, I do not think, A noobs nearly dying from a Diseased Rat, should only get 3-4 PP, they should get about 15 if not more, since that is the amount I get from Riverlings (but I don't loose any health)