Sorry in advance for the long post but I am trying to really explain some things here. If you don’t have the patience to at least skim to see whether something you wish to call me out on is addressed already, please don’t post as it is getting irritating to have to keep telling people that I’ve already done what they say I should do, getting mad at me when I haven’t actually attacked an idea they hold, or getting on their general high horse. I’m taking the time to write this thoughtfully, please take the time to post thoughtfully._______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Thank you mickra specifically for a thoughtful post that is neither disrespectful nor outright trolling. It means a lot to me. But, I have to disagree with you on a lot of things. This is partially because it was me saying some the same things you say now a year or two ago and after putting my thoughts into action, I found I got no long term results. If you don't believe me, go back a year or two in forum time and look at my posts and my other attempts to rally people to the save RP cause.
OSP sites aren't a problem. The fact that most of the RPers that ran them are gone is however. OSP was a wonderful opportunity but now most of the people behind it, on the PS team and the regular players, are gone. It's largely wallowing in abandon; however, work is being done to salvage the situation. The problem is that the overall RP environment in game is tainted and draining. Truthfully, it has
run off most of the RPers that were previously playing, from oldbies all the way to those that had played less than a year.
On a side note, I've seen people RP with Lady Peckerly just fine. Even without GM intervention.
You can RP with anything but like RPing with yourself, it grows old fast! And when speaking of Vakachekh, make your "No Offense meant" part bigger because when I said more or less the same things about the idea, I got labeled as a lazy bum that has never done nothing of my own… which is rather silly, but oh well.
About the general attitude amongst oldbies… The old RPers still LOVE RPing with each other and many of them stay in contact with each other. What they get bored of is players that have played for 3 months telling them their RP is wrong, or "it sucks", or being generally disrespectful. Yes some oldbies want extra respect, but only some and that isn't really the problem. The problem is a lack of respect going both ways. Oldbies are people too and could stand a little consideration same as newbies.
Newbs come in about three varieties. 1. Promising (you can work with these, oldbies actually get excited about these players) 2. A pain in the rear (They know too much to get a word of advice in edgewise) and 3. Could go either way. Most oldbies find very few of the first type and get bored or frustrated with trying to help. Often, it is not worth the effort to fight through high minded people that won't listen anyway or people that can't hold still long enough to be told anything.
A lot of olbies have respect for the first kind and will struggle and go out of their way to help them. But, if a newb goes around saying for instance that conversation RPs are unmitigated crap and most of the olbies around are convo people, they aren't going to take the newbs seriously or struggle with them. Oldbies have a fine sense of conservation of energy. If oldbies weren't afraid of running into the second kind of newbs and having the third kind turn into the second kind on them, they’d still be in game helping. Any person can only take abuse or apathy for so long. Considering the “rage against the oldbies” mentality that often develops, that time is very short.
The last great player exodus happened because RPers were sick of PLers and PLers were sick of RPers, so both left to get away from each other. This was bad as it left the game pretty empty afterward. However, this is why many oldbies lurk on the forums, they are waiting for the “all clear” to come back but are too skeptical to come back en masse right now. If a sizeable number came back, you’d find they’d be enthusiastically RPing and would contribute to the community again and I’ll go out on a limb here and say they’d contribute quite a bit. If nothing else, even if they got worn down they could RP with each other, get built back up, and start the fight anew.
On a side note, gee thanks for saying my work at the Stonehead was crap.
Those player crafted pies and whatnot were doing exactly what you say to do. The Tavern was a consistently calm no pressure environment that anyone could be comfortable RPing in. Part of the reason it was mostly chit chat in there is because it was a starting ground for players too worried about their RPing abilities (some of whom were too scared to RP in general because they felt too much was asked of them). It was a place where people could do what they could without getting read the riot act about the depth of their RP or about the kind of RP (the main idea was getting used to RPing something with confidence).
Many people that were afraid to RP in general came to the Stonehead and RPed. It takes many kinds of outreach to help a community and the Stonehead had its place like any other form of outreach. I just wish people had taken the time to see what it was really about instead of writing it off as boring and useless. Nobody hangs around what’s boring in a game just to be there unless there is some prestige involved. Many people were there because they had fun there and their experiences are valid too. I know I don’t have a ton of people rushing to praise the Stonehead here, but it wasn’t crap. I can tell you that much for a fact. It was just unfortunately too far out of the way for most people to bother after awhile.
I tried the greeting, RPing, and teaching part…(and still do to the extent that people let me). It’s just that most of the people I helped are now no longer playing for whatever their personal reasons are. And that’s not to mention all the other players that did the same, especially those stepping up to run or help run the play run areas which you are a bit quick to write off. Give oldbies some credit in that not all are uptight pains in the rear. Some tried but there is just no evidence left of their work now.
At the rate it is going, there will be nothing left of the work done by the people you mention in a year or two either. I’ve RPed and had all sorts of interesting interactions with the newer folks, but I don’t have people to come and tell everybody that demands my credentials that they personally had fun with my characters. Sorry… We do what we can, but just because we don’t have people constantly saying our names it doesn’t mean we didn’t do anything helpful. Especially since we aren’t usually looking for praise, you might not ever hear about the things we did.
Basically Mickra, I made all these same arguments you made and I put them into practice. I was being the change I wanted to see. You know what I have to show for my time and effort? I got people telling me to do what I’ve done, telling me my RPs were worthless although some people that actually participated in them had fun, and people telling me to basically shut up. (which sorta gets in the way of helping people) What should I do? Bend peoples’ arms and fight them to make them let me help them? No.
That kind of stuff is EXACTLY why you don’t see more oldbies helping like you say. They are tired, and they don’t want to have what has happened to me happen to them any more (because many have already paid their dues on this battlefield). They are truly tired. This is a wearying and thankless battle and people give up fighting actively after awhile. Maybe if newbs tried to be considerate and oldbies tried to be considerate, you might see those interactions between the two more often and some positive change.
Mickra: The question to your answer: before you have what, sorry?
Sorry I don’t understand your question, could you restate it? (Goodness, now I’m turning into an NPC. I wonder how long it will be before this is an obscure inside joke?)
Part of the problem of the “action vs everyday talk” battle is that everyone defines it differently. What a lot of us are calling everyday talk, you are calling action but your definition of action is different from most of the supporters of action RPs. Let me give you an example, by strict definition Illysia’s main RP at the tavern would be everyday chat. However, even though she does the meet and greet thing, it serves to move a greater story, which by your definition is action. Illy served as more of a truly interactive NPC and was there to help people develop their characters by giving them a safe place to do so and giving them a reason to do so. ( I learned first hand that having someone ask you your back story will make you jump to in developing one if you haven’t already done so.)
Yes, she said “Hi” and served breakfast, but even that served to develop her own story. Getting asked to run her own tavern in recognition of her ability to cook and take care of people by the Vigesimi of Gug was a step up for her. Before that, she cooked and mothered people on the side, but being service oriented was always a part if her character make up. Then, she had a place to take care of a wide variety of people, which was fulfilling to her.
I know many people won’t have any respect for that stuff, but it is a part of a story and one that some people didn’t mind partaking in. For instance, many people came to work under Illysia at the tavern in various jobs and had fun. Sometimes funny, and interesting RPs came of working or visiting the Stonehead, stuff that becomes a part of the memorable events of a character’s history. Like when the guards had to remove unruly patrons, which was RPed by the way. As far as I know, these were the first player guards that were halfway sanctioned. Or like when NPCs like Jayose, Allelia, or Malco came by and interacted with the people in the tavern at the time. (I rather miss Malco in fact.
) Players got to interact with the NPCs as characters and not a Quest Brick Wall for once… NPCs that in the past mostly stood there asking the player to please repeat themselves more clearly.
When I set the tavern up, I envisioned it as a place where RP was easy and non threatening (So that more people would partake of it). A place where players and GMs could actually RP in the same setting without it being a GM event, where old and new players could chill with each other and set the foundation for other RPs, and where people would come back to see who stopped in or be greeted by someone happy to see them. It was very successful in the beginning before I had to put it on the back burner for school, but now you wouldn’t know it. Maybe if you look at the Stonehead forum, you’ll get some sense of it how much more involved people were but now… *shrugs* Since soo many people left, new people have little idea of what it was like and about the same amount even care. The community’s tastes have drastically changed.
True this kind of RP can’t make up the entirety of RP, but it’s getting pushed out completely and just coming up with half a reason to duel, rob, or have a NC-18 RP can’t be the entirety either. I guess what it boils down to is what I had hoped to come of the collective sum of my recent threads: People need to learn to respect each other as intelligent beings with valid preferences and come together to mend the community and find a plausible solution for restoring the RPing atmosphere.
As it stands though, there’s too much backbiting going on between RPers to come to any kind of useful solution right now. If we RPers can’t get ourselves together, what can be done about the community and the RP environment?
