Knives and Daggers

[Maisent]

Well, I've been using the Knives and Daggers skill since I first joined Planeshift on Caraick.  I remember the days when it was possible to two-shot ulbernauts with daggers, and it was also possible to take on Maulbernauts, with a bit of dueling skill.  Howeverm this is obviously not possible anymore, particularly with the new armor combat system.



That brings me to the main point of my post...  Recently, when testing out my daggers on Heavy Armor, I was able to do a whopping .09 damage to someone's foot.... Yes, I typed that correctly, .09 damage.  I was using q300 daggers, on q50 HA, in Bloody stance.  I had a level of 80 in daggers at the time, and the other player was maxed in Heavy Armor.  That was the only time I was ever able to do ANY damage at all.  All other hits failed to do any damage on the player.  This coming from a pretty high dagger level, and all basic stats maxed.  In duels, it is impossible for me to do any damage at all with daggers if someone is maxed in Heavy Armor.  That is absolutely ridiculous, and makes very little sense to me.  This system seems terribly unfair to dagger fighters, as the players who have maxed Heavy Armor are guaranteed near complete invulnerabilty from daggers and knives.  


The daggers being used in the medieval setting that Planeshift is loosely modeled after are not your typical little blades that might be 6 to 8 inches in length, as generally portrayed and/or thought.  No, the daggers used in that time period were frequently over  a foot long, some times as long as 20 inches, and weighing up to several pounds.  That kind of blade would do some serious damage against plate armor, and given it's narrow blade, would be very easy to slip in between plates as well.  A dagger of that size would be able to cut through materials and armor just as easily as a sword would.  Given that even a shortsword can make considerable damage on plate armor in the new system, why not a dagger of nearly the same size?  Take a hit on a helmet, for example.... If a longsword is stabbed directly at a helmet with enough force, the tip of the sword will go right through the helmet, most likely doing the same to the head inside the helmet as well.   If a 20 inch dagger blade is stabbed directly at a helmet, in the same manner, with the same amount of force, I guarantee you, the exact same effect will occur, perhaps with even more effect due to the better accuracy of a smaller blade

 That's not even counting in the skill that all expert dagger or knife fighters possess... If someone has spent months, even years training in the usage of daggers, you better believe they're pretty darn good at using them against different armor types.  Not to mention being maxed in strength, agility, and endurance, the necessary physical requirements would also be there as well.  A skilled dagger or knife fighter would be able to find weak points in bulky armor, such as HA plate, as well as be able to stab directly though some areas.  Granted, it may be extremely difficult or even impossible to stab directly through a plate mail chestpiece, or a legpiece, but hits on the arms, hands, feet, or head should do more damage then.  Maybe work in shoulder hits, where plate mail armor has vulnerable joints?  Regardless of how it's done, the system is completely lopsided against dagger fighters' favor..


My main point is this: The damage and effect of daggers in Planeshift currently is terribly skewed, especially with the new armor system.  This is unfair to those of us who have spent long hours training daggers, and use them as our primary fighting weapon.


I'm not typically the type to complain, and please don't perceive this as my own enraged ranting, I'm just looking for some answers, or some kind of change...  Technically speaking, we're all still just testing the game... Beta, right? 

 So please, please, please don't see this as me having a rant at the Devs or the settings team.  I have nothing but respect for all the Planeshift team, and I love PS dearly, and trying to help highlight what I think is a problem with a major combat weapon.



Comments, Discussion, Haters, and Feedback Welcome!!!

You are right, it isn't very balanced seeing how there are some axes/ swords who have the speed of 1.5, having the descp of kinves and daggers IG as fast but do minimall damage is very wrong.

[Caraick]

I am training in daggers now... guttered for my bad option. When are the developers going to finally get right into the balancing, it obviously isn't right right now so they need to spend about 2 hours sitting there editing it till it seems to be correct. It seems to sound as easy as balancing a medieval weigh scale, it probably isn't. I think the longer dagger types are Galkards, don't know much about those. Are they better than 300Q daggers in combat?

I've never even seen a galkard in game.... I dunno. 

Galkards aren't classified as daggers, they're a type of sword, unless I'm terribly mistaken... 
And as such, due to the much higher effect of swords on Heavy Armor, a 300q galkard would be much better then a 300q dagger, even if the dagger fighter has a much higher skill level.  Galkards can only be obtained by a GM event reward, I believe, or by purchasing them from players who have gotten them from an event, which makes them considerably rare...

You are right, it isn't very balanced seeing how there are some axes/ swords who have the speed of 1.5, having the descp of kinves and daggers IG as fast but do minimall damage is very wrong.

This is also another issue I have with knives and daggers in the combat system.  Apparently a small battle axe that weighs several pounds of solid metal, and is at least 2 feet long can have the same speed as a 6-10 inch knife that may only weigh a few ounces at most.... 

[Maisent]

I've never even seen a galkard in game.... I dunno. 

Galkards aren't classified as daggers, they're a type of sword, unless I'm terribly mistaken... 
And as such, due to the much higher effect of swords on Heavy Armor, a 300q galkard would be much better then a 300q dagger, even if the dagger fighter has a much higher skill level.  Galkards can only be obtained by a GM event reward, I believe, or by purchasing them from players who have gotten them from an event, which makes them considerably rare...






[/quote]


my galkard is rotting in my storage, oh welll. I think galkards are swords, but i have not checked on mine for a very long time.

[Earowo]

I've never even seen a galkard in game.... I dunno.  

Galkards aren't classified as daggers, they're a type of sword, unless I'm terribly mistaken...  
And as such, due to the much higher effect of swords on Heavy Armor, a 300q galkard would be much better then a 300q dagger, even if the dagger fighter has a much higher skill level.  Galkards can only be obtained by a GM event reward, I believe, or by purchasing them from players who have gotten them from an event, which makes them considerably rare...

my galkard is rotting in my storage, oh welll. I think galkards are swords, but i have not checked on mine for a very long time.
[/quote]


1. Galkards are swords meant for fighting underwater.
2. Swords do considerably LESS damage then they used to to heavy armor, so idk wtf your talking about
and 3. Galkards used to be obtainable from dlayo's but they havnt been since labout V 0.5.1

I have a platinum galkard in my storage i used to have ornate ones too

[Caraick]

@Earowo  1- Never knew that, actually, interesting... 
               2- -EVERYTHING does less damage now, hence my complaints...But swords actually do a bit of damage, whereas daggers will not do -any-...   
               3- They changed that at the .5 release i think, or maybe at 5.1, either way, I was referring to how obtainable they are currently 

[Earowo]

swords Do do damage, but they only do about half as much as they used to.. mabey less
and axes are supposedly doing less which is retarted, becuase both swords and axes are slash
i've been training blunt weapon, but so far i cant effect plate mail..

[Tessra]

Axes are still doing damage on plate mail.  *grumbles about people killifying her through her HA*  But last night, I was running 50q HA against a falchion/saber, both of over 200q and they did no damage on me at HA 62.  When my armor is damaged though, I take damage from the swords.

[Maisent]

Axes are still doing damage on plate mail.  *grumbles about people killifying her through her HA*  But last night, I was running 50q HA against a falchion/saber, both of over 200q and they did no damage on me at HA 62.  When my armor is damaged though, I take damage from the swords.

Last time i Dueled, it was with julietas, she had i think 300Q swords or something, and i had 300Q axes. I think she was on normal stance and i was on bloody. She did like 100 damage to me, or even more. But i was only doing like 50 -100 damge. Also we had 50q HA.

Also one time with Troyyer he is only in full defenive (50q HA), i was in bloody stance (300Q axe) and i only did like .30 damage so the duel lasteed around 30 minutes.

So I decided the Armor system went down south to crap, so when we dueled again we didnt have armor. Which would be fair to everyone except if Krans participate.

[Tessra]

Well, if you're in bloody with the same quality weapons, she would do more damage than you.  It balances out the difference between axes/swords.  Full defensive is even worse about not being able to inflict damage, either on the other person or them on you. 

But if I fight someone who has double my axe level or higher, no matter what stance I do, they are going to do some damage.  Whereas, the same stance, same level of dagger will do almost no damage. 

If I'm dueling for fun or training, I prefer armorless.  It makes it more fair, and more fun.  But if I'm in a fight or being attacked, then you're darn right I'm going to have 50q HA on.

[Draklar]

Dagger as a feared weapon..? Guys, do you all come from 1960s South Bronx or something? Where do you even take your theories from?
Daggers were never considered to be decent battlefield weapons.

I do realise that you probably can think of countless ways in which a guy with a pointy stick can overwhelm a fully clad axeman, but imagine... for a second just imagine this: not everyone is a freaking ninja...

[kaerli2]

Dagger as a feared weapon..? Guys, do you all come from 1960s South Bronx or something? Where do you even take your theories from?
Daggers were never considered to be decent battlefield weapons.

I do realise that you probably can think of countless ways in which a guy with a pointy stick can overwhelm a fully clad axeman, but imagine... for a second just imagine this: not everyone is a freaking ninja...

I personally think that a skill-dependent bonus to Pierce damage would make sense here.  That way, skilled dagger wielders such as Caraick, Kaerli, and Daehaz can out-ninja the plate wearers, while they still are safe from more pedestrian opponents (which takes Draklar's comment into account).

Remember this, Draklar: if it hurts, it works!

[verden]

Daggers were carried by all classes of soldiers specifically for their ability to pierce chain and plate mail armor in close quarters. This is well known.

[Draklar]

Daggers were carried by soldiers, but rarely as combat weaponry (and never as primary weapon). Their basic uses were ornamentation, out-of-battle defense or simply a mean of suicide.
Gladius and Xiphos is pretty much as short as standard bladed weaponry gets, and neither of these shortswords were ever used as primary weapons. And that's shortswords. With a dagger it's nearly impossible to even pass a shield (unless you're a kaerli), and I hope we're also talking about opponents who were actually trained to use their (more sensible) weapons to keep their enemies at proper range, possess the ability to (magically enough) move around, dash people and, I don't know, hit stuff. People always had better means of piercing armour. Most notably a spear. Later other forms of armour-piercing weaponry were invented.

And adding to this, for some unknown reason it's actually pretty hard to find an RPG system where a dagger-wielder can match a similarily trained swordsman. Actually, it's pretty much the case in most systems that a heavy-armoured warrior wielding a sword or a mace can outmatch any other class in a one-on-one combat. Perhaps it's because the silly game producers perceive warriors as a sheer fighting force. I dunno why.

So both reality and game industry are actually against this bizarre idea of dagger-wielding superheroes cutting through the universe's few remaining shreds of common sense.

But yeah, ninja.


P.S. ninja were assassins, not warriors. In open combat they would be beaten by samurai, hard. And also by pirates.
P.P.S. in open combat ninja used primarily katana. A sword. Not a dagger.

[Tessra]

Keep in mind too, that not all "battles" took place on a battlefield.  Many times daggers were used as a sneak attack, in dark alleys, ports, taverns, etc. 

For example... a "knight" has gone to his local tavern and happens to be relaxing with a pint or twenty.  Some nefarious person comes up behind him and notices a fat purse and decides to take it.  They probably aren't going to pull out their giant battle axe and give a war cry to alert the poor stupid knight and everyone else in the tavern.  No, they are going to pretend to be drunk, stumble over, shank him in the side with his dagger of doom, piercing the armor he most likely didn't take off, and steal the purse, before stumbling out the door.  No one being the wiser of what he did until they find the knight's bleeding body at closing time.

Now, let's say Mr. Nefarious doesn't kill the knight... If the knight gets up and starts chasing the thief, does it make sense for the thief to not be able to defend himself atall? No. He would have skills, and would be deadly with his daggers.  Otherwise he would have chosen another line of work. 

And yes, soldiers did carry daggers... as secondary weapons.  No one ever charged into battle holding their bright, shiny (read that as tiny compared to a claymore) dagger aloft.  No, you kept it in a boot, or a sheath in case your primary weapon was lost, damaged, or you were too injured to lift it. 

P.S.  Depends on the years of training for both the ninja and the samurai. 
P.S.S. Ninja were trained in the use of many weapons, quite a few being very effective on a long range distance which a samurai could not compensate for.  Don't forget shuriken and the like.  Katana and wakazashi were not ideal weapons for ninja, as they generally involved being close or visible. 
P.S.S. Honestly, the style of combat seen in Eastern cultures is so different than that of Western cultures that its hard to compare them.  Huge cumbersome weapons, versus light, fast ones.  Even the smallest true double-edged sword lacks the precise handling of a katana.  But, this also takes into consideration the overall musculature and stature of those wielding them. 

[verden]

this bizarre idea of dagger-wielding superheroes cutting through the universe's few remaining shreds of common sense

I'm not sure where you get your exhaustive and precise knowledge of weaponry, but its hardly a subject for such narcissistic drama.

With the advent of very protective plate armour during the Middle Ages, the dagger became increasingly useful as a good close in weapon for stabbing through the gaps in armour. Books offering instruction on the use of weapons predominantly described that the dagger be held in the hand with the blade pointing from the heel of the hand both in armour and out of armour, and used by making downward jabs.

From the year 1250 onward, gravestones and other contemporary images show knights with a dagger or combat knife at their side.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagger

Swords supposedly owe their existence to daggers. In the arms-race of ancient history, daggers allegedly became longer and longer until they became in all respects, swords. When swords took over the dominant role in combat, daggers were still kept around for several reasons; they were great for close quarters fighting, they could be hidden easily and, if weighted properly, could be thrown at opponents. Daggers were also still quite popular in the dining halls to cut and skewer food as well (seriously).

http://www.strongblade.com/prod/sba-liegeblade_hist.html