More players Less Npcs!!!

[Nadius]

im tired of seeing people talk about Npcs.... Npc cops npc mercs npc bounty hunters... the list goes on .   for one in my life id love to see a player run game.  as little npcs as possible. i think this would add more player interaction. and isnt that what a mmorpg is about. i dont like solo mmorpgs i see no point (runescape) they just arnt fun and shoulnt be out there..

So please  people less talk about npcs and more talk about us(players)

[DizzleCorinthos]

Alright, just a few questions then.

1.  How will players receive quests without NPCs?

2.  How will there be a working trade system without NPCs to run shops, provide services, etc.

3.  If PCs somehow took over these roles, how successful do you think the game would be?

Dont knock the NPCs, they are just as essential as the players.  Too many players forget that.

[Geminosity]

1) we need quests?

2) Check out ragnarok\'s merchant class and look at prontera\'s lovely little \'market\'... it\'s not official but because the players are allowed to set up their own shops and stuff the center of prontera is now THE place to go shopping in RO

3) *shrug* we\'ve been stuck with the same old games for so long now it\'s hard to imagine what would happen if someone actually did something outside the MMORPG stereotype for once ^~

*hits an NPC and runs before the police come*

[paxx]

Good thread keep it up?but we will have monsters that are not PCs?the rest I would not mind not worrying about, but we do and we will.

[elminster]

Originally posted by DizzleCorinthos
1.  How will players receive quests without NPCs?

Players would give them

Originally posted by DizzleCorinthos
2.  How will there be a working trade system without NPCs to run shops, provide services, etc.

The players would run shops and provide services - just as in real life

If the game is well programmed, many things should be assigned to players instead of NPCs, and because PlaneShift doesn\'t focus on hack\'n\'slash only, many players would lovely take part in the \"ordinary\" tasks of the world.

Anyway, I already thought about a Mercenary Guild, that consists of hireable warriors (real players). That would be neat. Does any like this already exist?

--
Greetings,
E.

[Clayton]

You would need some basic NPC\'s but there is no reason why the players can award things for others to complete (quests) and open thier own stores.  I for one love to bargin hunt on these games  :-D

[Nadius]

hey i know we wil always have npc mobs and what not and to some degree npcs but some jobs dont need to be npc ran... this would help out mant aspects of the game....
               lets say your a very important merchant you buy and sell thousands of things a day... you leave the safe town to get some things and you get pked.... lets say that person is in a guild.. so you talk to your mercant freinds and the \"guards of the city\" also players  and before you know it they are  hunted and no one will sell to em... now in my opinion this is alot better of an idea than npc guards,npc merchants.. and with little quest givers it would make it easier for people to make money... lets say a lether smither needs hides
he shouts paying x dolors for x ammount of hides....ding!!!! a quest thats easier to find and easier to compleate...

see i can see how some people dont agree.  you know its a big change, it means alot more player inervention.. people could not walk around being a--holes all the time.  see in a world where players are such big part. you cant afford  to make enemies with everyone.. not like most other games

i remember i played eq on tallon zek(pk server) i was in the most infamous guild we won all the gm events we held all the key points no one liked us not even the gms now if players mattered in that game we would have to be nice to some people at least...

bottem line if you start trouble in the bar you get cut off..
thats the way i think it should be

[hook]

1)
there\'s more problems that quest NPCs emerge then solutions IMO.
for one, you have to make a lot quite intelligent NPCs, which is a bother do implement and another bother to the (most) players. the next problem is making the World coherent carrying NPCs. every single NPC would have to have a soffisticated programmed and intelligent life. i see no point in having 100 PCs rescure the same daughter of the same NPC or slay the same fabled dragon, or even to see a NPC stand in the same place all the time always complaining about the same thing ...building good NPCs is really hard and tiresome (the only REALLY good NPCs i\'ve seen were the ones in ultima)

my conclusion would be that players would anyway start their own quests (hire a noobie, get a messanger to fetch something, ...) and also the devs could/should help with that ...IMO quests should be carried either between players in the World themselves, or posted in the forums or on the page (even better would be to have them implemented in the library!!!) ...i mean imagine finding a book about a fabouled treasure or a very powerful dragon, or about a distant land that noone ever explored and lived... ...it\'d just take the devs to implement the quest and then pass it into the community (preferably directly into the World), the library idea would be great
i think that NPCs shold be few but made good, and used only as a source of information where you can\'t get it otherwise (like farmers in far away places...), but they should be made REALLY good ...it would be a nice option if you could ask the NPC for news, and he\'d tell you about finished (or even started) quests in the surroundings and you could ask him if someone passed his house in the last day/week/... (maybe he could be bribable to forget that person you\'re looking for, and would be eager to remeber her/him when you open your money-pouch)

2)
we have merchants\' guilds and similar ...we have merchants, blacksmiths, alchemsits, etc. ...i don\'t see a problem with having no NPC merchants/smiths/alchemists...
also with a PC merchant/smith/... you can always argue about the price, which you (usually) can\'t with a NPC ...nor chat

3)
hmmm, i don\'t know ...in (early) MUDs there were no NPCs worth mentioning and they were pretty happy with that ...so happy that they evolved into (MMO)RPGs ...plus that\'s what roleplaying is all about: playing roles, i\'ve seen some players here that\'d rather be farmers or merchants then explorers or mercenaries

p.s. this is not an attack DizzleCorinthos, i\'m just trying to develop a quality thread and contribute to the solution of the NPC problem

[AendarCallenlasse]

The problem with PC merchants and such is that how long do you think they will stay logged on?  Think about coming to the game and there being no merchants there.  A player is not gonna stay online for 24 hours straight.  And how many people are going to sit in a store for hours on end just selling stuff?  NPC merchants are much more reliable.  And as far as PC guards, there is no PKing so that would be pointless.  Quests being run by PCs is ok but you would always have to get Dev help with that if it is going to be worthwhile.

[Nadius]

i see what your saying about the pcs not being on at all times but honestly do you think that someone tyhat sells the same thing wont... and yesas i said earlier yes there will have to be some npcs or maybe npc  or pcs that run a shop while the store owner is not online (casheirs) but the store would be supplied by pc merchants... it would be something for the merchants and crafting people to work towards like they start out selling in the plaza then they eventully make enough money to get a shop and then they have to make money to hire a cashier.... i dont know i just dont like the idea of npcs running pcs life in a way i mean id like to see a city ran by certain guilds... or what notlike lets say you and 5 freimds decide to go to x city an start sevral buisnesses then others that you know set up shop in the same town before you know it there would be a x city merchant guild or maybe even rival merchant guilds in the same city i think it would spice up the life of the merchants of the game.. and as far as quests i see some high level npc quests for special items but beside that players could do the rest

and i also think pcs should make the best gear in the game...

[beza1e1]

My opinion as always: More power to the players!

I think Planeshift is a big chance to make things different and better. One point is the NPC part. It would be truly amazing to have a world, where players carry the allday tasks, where a whole city can exist without any NPC. Ok but there are problems.

How could we get the players to do that? players don\'t know such a system, so they will behave like in any other MMORPG. This is the task of the current small community! Build up a functional newbie introduction system to lead them into such a world. The beginning of a system, where the Players give quests to other players is the hardest point. How could this get running? Why should a guild hire another player or guild to do a job?

Why should the players do it? Is it bad to force them to do boring jobs like merchants? I think there should be at least one City, which works like a typical MMORPG city, so at least this one will work. The others will struggle in the beginning, but hopefully become superior later.

Now another point. player will have to be more efficient than NPCs. They must have a chance to be better. More profit and nicer for other PCs. Perhaps this will even lead to a point where the devs can remove the NPCs. Players always could do a job better than any NPC, so we should at least give them the chance to do it.

[DizzleCorinthos]

Ok, please excuse the length of this.

First for hook\'s response to my previous post.

1.  Granted, the NPCs would have to be semi-intelligent.  Programming a script can be simple and unsophisticated or complex and intelligent.  You dont have to ask them about the weather and get an intelligent response though.  Just program them with enough brains to set you on the right track for a quest.

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i see no point in having 100 PCs rescure the same daughter of the same NPC or slay the same fabled dragon
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I totally agree with you here.  Its silly to do that over again.  Make replayable quests somewhat realistic.  Repel the Ogres too close to town borders.  Fix the sabotaged windmill in the woods to the south that gets attacked often.  Fetch a vial of blessed water from a holy spring for a protection ritual.  That kind of thing would have to be performed over and over.

Player run quests only?  Dont expect doing many quests then.  Other games have tried to implement this before and it just doesnt work.  A combination of static game quests and player quests could work though.  If player run quests are the only ones, there will not be enough quests for everyone to do.  If I wanted to play a hack and slash, I would just load up Diablo 2.  

Your idea about finding a book to get quests is a great one.  Imagine doing research to get a quest.  The higher your Intelligence or Will would get you a better quest.  A great idea that I would love to see implemented.  But that brings up one question to my mind, do people want a 2 point quest only?  (1. find info and travel to place.  2. go through place and finish)  I would like quests that had multiple \'legs\' to it.

2.  Having no NPC tradespeople will create a few problems.  One, you never know where a trader is going to be.  Now youre going to say \'there will be an established trade area\'.  You ever go into that area in another game where everyone is spamming with prices for things they are selling.  That is one of the most annoying parts of this genre of game.  Now if an auction hall was going on, with one item at a time, that would be a good idea.  But who wants to wait around an auction hall all day to find one item they are looking for.

Another bad part of no NPC tradespeople is that there is no set \'standard\' for prices.  If you just got a potion of flying, and you have never seen it sold anywhere, how much do you sell it for?  You may sell it for much more than its worth, but more likely youll sell it for far less.

A good thing about NPC tradesfolk is that you can dump goods no one wants on them to get something for them.  All your hard work for nothing is never a good thing.

3.  Playing tradesmen and support characters is my preferred role.  I would love to have a game that implemented this right.  Most games nowadays run from trade skills.  I say embrace them.  If you could be a straight up tailor or armorsmith, I would jump on that.  One great profession was the Trader in a MUD I played.  You could set up shop sell things.  You could play the commodities market.  Etc etc.  But you also had to play the shouting game.  No fun with that.

So to wrap it up, I propose a new idea.

Create a new set of skills.  Label them trade skills.  (Some may exist in another form already)

-Research (char goes into library and looks up quest.  They give quest to characters and get a profit from the reward of the group)
-Craft skills (Craft Armor, Craft Weapon, Tools, Keys, etc etc)
-Create skills (Food, Alchemy, Brewing, etc)
-Acquire skills (Trader types go to a central trade building.  Based on this skill, the background \'rolls\' to see what a character can aquire.  This will be for a \'wholesale\' price that the character can turn around for a profit)
-Modify skills (Take existing items and modify them.  Dye cloak black.  Sharpen blade edge.  Rebalance axe.  These would either change appearance, give new attributes, or modify existing attributes).

Ok, im going to stop now.  I could seriously go on for days.   I build \'systems\' all the time.  Just was revamping one today for a board game.  Play tested too.  Anyways, you dont care about that.

So, is that a good alternative to NPCs?

[Fallen Angel]

I think you need basic NPCs or the game will actually fall apart....few people realise this but NPCs hold the game together and give it structure...

Shopkeepers, smiths, alchemists and such need to stay. Player organised guild wars would be cool and perhaps a quest master (a guy that provides a large number of quests) in each town would be good rather than loads of NPCs giving quests.

Morrowind is a good example of this - there are about 10 guilds each with like 30 quests each. And because you can join all the guilds at once and receive quests from all of them at once it is impossibly confusing so having a set place to get quests seems good.

[hook]

finding quests:
who said that you\'d find that isle/forest/den/etc so quick? ...i mean, there could be tons of bends and angles on the path to finding it ...first you\'d have to find out where it is ...which i doubt would say POS 2032,-23,-235 or level2, at the end of the Western road ...i\'m thinking of really long quests ...i\'d like to have a quest that would take me years (IRL!!!) to complete ...finding a fogotten city wouldn\'t/shouldn\'t be that easy ...we mustn\'t forget the fact that PS will evolve and evolve and would probably last for quite some years or even decades ...i really mean it!!! ...those little quests like \"get the vial\", \"save the daughter\" \"slay the beasts\" \"help a player on his quest\" etc. would (for me) only be some quests by the way this is how i imagine it: someday you hear a rumour that there was a fogotten city where the enkidukkai met a native unknown race and they lived together in peace and built a great magical city in the middle of a eons-old forest ...this you would have to find out slowly and using much effort ...asking different people all over the World and reading many books, until you finally found out where it could be ...but you\'re getting two very different locations where it could be ...you\'ll still have to find them, since their locations aren\'t known anymore ...they\'re just remembered by name and in stories (where you get the descriptions how they look like) ...that\'s a quest for me :]

about NPCs:
well, i had a change of mind just now ...NPCs probably have to be here ...the bigger quests require NPCs which have to be pretty intelligent!! ...a group of PC merchants could work together in a guild/shop, but maybe a NPC at the counter would be a good solution as an option (you\'d have to hire a NPC to work for you, but you\'d also be able to hire a noobie or any other player to do it for some time ...but hireing a NPC should be VERY EXPENSIVE -> guilds/shops)

about those \"skills\":
i don\'t know ...i think that finding quests in a really good RPG would require real RP-ing, so you\'d have to find the books/people yourself and read the books yourself, etc. ...maybe charisma would help with NPCs, but that\'s mostly as far as i would go here

[kyp14]

we need NPC for one players are boring most people don\'t bother role playing which makes the game loose atmosphere + NPC\'s make it easy to spread story\'s and rumours like a wounded NPC coming in the city gates yelling that the enimies are coming no one will survive if your grouped in a party and you can only hire real people it would be quite bad if you lost half your people because one had to go to school another had to go to work and another had his mum trip over the phone line cable

I\'m not saying we shouldn\'t have lots of player interaction but what the first person seemed to be saying was we should get rid of the majority of them which would be a bad idea I say put more and more in there is no reason we they can\'t put in heaps of NPC\'s and heaps of player interaction like a player run plaza etc you can have pretty much all of this player interaction your talking about and still have a heap of NPC\'s