Non-Euclidean Geometries in the DR

[MishkaL1138]

also there even are (somewhat) examples of such things, e.g. the sewers actually intersect with the plaza and several buildings you can enter are bigger inside than they are outside (e.g. kada-el's)

Kind of like Pokemon games buildings and caves?

[weltall]

it wouldn't be a load problem much. putting all in the same map will avoid load. The real problem is that portals are more heavy as you need to render the scene in the portal and put it as a texture (portal series used some tricks to reduce weight but that's a cs side work in any case).

[Aramara Meibi]

I did a little mock up of the type of fun stuff we could do with this.

Person approaches gate at 1a enters at 1b to find themselves in a unicursal labyrinth. After meandering through they approach the center of the labyrinth at 2a and emerge at 2b



you could even make the labyrinth recursive, at any point in its course, create a portal leading to the entrance of another instance of it. Iterate this ad infinitum to create a labyrinth you can only progress deeper and deeper into and never emerge!

it wouldn't be a load problem much. putting all in the same map will avoid load. The real problem is that portals are more heavy as you need to render the scene in the portal and put it as a texture (portal series used some tricks to reduce weight but that's a cs side work in any case).

Is this really the case? According to this:

yes, it is possible using portals.
as you may or may not know in crystalspace (resp. planeshift) the world consists of multiple 3d spaces (sectors) connected via portals.

there are even examples of it in DR (if you manage to get to the bottom alive, there's a portal leading back up).

also there even are (somewhat) examples of such things, e.g. the sewers actually intersect with the plaza and several buildings you can enter are bigger inside than they are outside (e.g. kada-el's)

If I'm standing outside Kada's looking in, I'm actually looking through a portal into a separate sector. Of course, you're the expert.

[weltall]

i don't see the conflict between the two

[LigH]

If you are using strong anti-aliasing, and you look closely at edges with a slightly tilted camera, you'll see that e.g. looking through the limits of the East Passage, the fence around the government area with the courthouse looks more coarse and less anti-aliased — until you pass the doorway, then it suddenly gets smoother.

[RlyDontKnow]

it wouldn't be a load problem much. putting all in the same map will avoid load. The real problem is that portals are more heavy as you need to render the scene in the portal and put it as a texture (portal series used some tricks to reduce weight but that's a cs side work in any case).

Is this really the case? [...]
If I'm standing outside Kada's looking in, I'm actually looking through a portal into a separate sector. Of course, you're the expert.

yes. sectors and loading zones are different things. loading zones consist (usually) of multiple sectors (often something like 3-10, but it's really whatever you want).

portals however do have some performance issues, but they shouldn't be an issue as long as you don't see many at once (to check it out, stand at harn and look towards east hydlaa so you also see temple and sewer entrance - that's why it's slow there )

e.g. the sewers consist of many smaller sectors all connected via portals and it's not an issue at all

to the actual point tho:
yeah, some spatial weirdness would be fun, but overdoing it with super weird labyrinths is a little over the top I think, it's already hard enough to find the DR exit for newcomers as it's now

[Aramara Meibi]

ok, ok, the recursive labyrinth is a little too much for this game, although now that I've thought of it, I totally want to make one. Anyone want to help?

BUT! the labyrinth in the picture is unicursal, which, for those of you who failed latin, means 'one path'. There is only one path to follow, no dead ends. It meanders from one point at the edge of the circle to the center. Unicursal labyrinths first appeared in ancient greek and etruscan crafts and were prevalent in medieval romanesque and gothic architecture. They have a deep spiritual meaning as existential metaphors (walking the path of life). A lot of you are in Europe yes? Go to your nearest cathedral, my money is on you finding a unicursal labyrinth either on the floor in tilework or etched into the wall somewhere, for people to trace with their finger.

For the people who rush through the DR on their way back from the BD, sure, trekking a labyrinth would be a headache, but those people aren't playing the game the way its supposed to be played. Give our characters something to contemplate, please.

Go ahead and try it out, use your pointer or follow it with your eye. It's fun, meditative, and when you reach the center you'll say 'well, that was neat, but why?' which is the same question you'll be asking when you die.

[Eonwind]

For the people who rush through the DR on their way back from the BD, sure, trekking a labyrinth would be a headache, but those people aren't playing the game the way its supposed to be played.

in a 3D game trekking a labyrinth is a headache for almost anyone not only those that use DR as a shortcut

[Aramara Meibi]

you guys are no fun

[Dannae]

Really like your idea Aramara! For those of us who play that death is something to be seriously feared, it would definitely make more sense. I suppose to keep everyone happy though, there could be a shortcut built in for those who just want to get out.

Suggestions:
1. The choice via npc to simply be placed directly back to the surface, possibly including some kind of penalties... longer curse, giving up more strength, etc.
2. The choice to find your way out where if you do so, there will be no strength or curse penalty.
3. The choice to find your way out within a set amount of time, which if successful will incur no penalty and if unsuccessful, incur some other less severe penalty than choice 1. If your time runs out, Dakkru takes pity on you and teleports your sorry soul back to the surface.

I see this almost as turning exiting the DR into a game ooc'ly trying to solve the puzzle in time.

[tman]

I really like the idea of non-euclidean geometries in the DR to give it a creepy feel.  My only concern is that this will make it even harder for newer players.  Right now the DR is frustrating if you don't know the way out and anything from a slight annoyance to a shortcut if you do.  Making the DR even more confusing will make it even more frustrating the first time, but once people have learned the way it won't really be any different.  If there were a way to randomize the start point, the end point, or some of the portal destinations, this would give the DR the desired effect every time.

[Aramara Meibi]

I really like the idea of non-euclidean geometries in the DR to give it a creepy feel.  My only concern is that this will make it even harder for newer players.  Right now the DR is frustrating if you don't know the way out and anything from a slight annoyance to a shortcut if you do.  Making the DR even more confusing will make it even more frustrating the first time, but once people have learned the way it won't really be any different.  If there were a way to randomize the start point, the end point, or some of the portal destinations, this would give the DR the desired effect every time.

also randomizing where you re-emerge into the living realm

[Rigwyn]

Before the re-entry point was set to hydlaa for everyone, there were different entry points for each race.  The entry point for enkis was in oja, dwarves were in the plaza, and so on.

There were problems.. For one, people were scattered all over the place - which was not an issue when there were more players, for another, it was being used by some as a shortcut.. The latter really hasn't changed.

A truly random re-entry point ( perhaps one of 100 known good points ) would be nice if there were a lot more players - like 150 or so on average..

Just my 2 cents.

[RlyDontKnow]

I really like the idea of non-euclidean geometries in the DR to give it a creepy feel.  My only concern is that this will make it even harder for newer players.  Right now the DR is frustrating if you don't know the way out and anything from a slight annoyance to a shortcut if you do.  Making the DR even more confusing will make it even more frustrating the first time, but once people have learned the way it won't really be any different.  If there were a way to randomize the start point, the end point, or some of the portal destinations, this would give the DR the desired effect every time.

also randomizing where you re-emerge into the living realm

totally... let's remove the curse and just spawn people at random places in the sewers *hides*

yes, weird stuff in DR would be fun... but: later imo.
making it obligatory to go through madness isn't helpful atm as it'd just make things even more frustrating for new players which are crucial to keep things going

however something optional (maybe for a quest down there to kill some time if you actually didn't manage to find the way out ;P) would work fine I suppose - I still wouldn't count on such things getting priority, tho

[Phantomboy86]

Perhaps the reward for completing a quest down there would be re-emerging to the realm of the living? Could have the quest be re-doable every once in awhile.