The Gods Must Be Angry-DEBATE

[Cairn]

I never mean to offend or start fights, so sorry in advance to the people who didn't like this plot or don't like it.

__

Just a few remarks:

a) This kind of plots was the reason why Illysia left once. Too blatant. Too violent. Too forceful to be ignored by people who don't like it too much...
Understandably. Unfortunately, these types of plots will always be a staple within PlaneShift. Due to the settings, the nature of the Religions and their backstory, and also due to the wants and tendencies of our players, PlaneShift will never be a Utopia. Of course, my aim isn't to offend Illysia. Nor is to force her to leave. In fact, it's never to force anyone to leave. They can, and always will, have the choice to simply ignore it if they choose. Now, I know it's hard to ignore plots like these, and that certainly makes you ticked that you can't, if your a player that desires only a Utopia to come too. That being said, I'm perfectly willing to call off this entire RP and disregard it ever happening those who are offended need only say so - I try to be an obliging fellow.


b) This kind of plot even enforces GMs to get involved as guards, although GMs are meant to stay out of roleplays as much as possible, to avoid preference among players.
There's a certain irony to this one. The guards, placed by the developers/settings team, are meant to corral RPs like this. However, since they are NPCs, they literally do nothing. A wise 'villain' RPer can simply commit crimes out of sight of the guards, to fulfill settings purposes, and then because a GM is "not allowed to get involved", the crime goes unpunished. Equally ironic is the Octarchial decree that the citizens of Hydlaa are not allowed to perform vigilante style justice, in essence. That certainly corrals what someone can and cannot do.
a.) The GM team runs several events. These events are the most public of all, even being advertise, OOCly, and OOCLy attended or invited to by many. Does the public have the chance to ignore these, perhaps not violent (although some are), but nonetheless blatant?
A: Of course. It's up to the player.
Does a player have a choice to interact in any RP, no matter how blatant, violent, dramatic, traumatic, emotional, non-emotional, Utopian, friendly, unfriendly, etc?
A: Of course. It's up to the player.

Now, all that being said, as I mentioned, I'm perfectly willing, happy, and capable of ending this RP and disregarding it ever happening. That may sadden some people who were involved, and it may make others happy who didn't want it to happen, but I'm good with it.

All things considered, the RP cliques need to be broken up. There is no RP of any kind going on between the different guilds and groups, for the most part, most if it centered around where you are placed and will remain so.
GM involvement is a bonus, but they don't have to if they don't want to, I'm sure Hydlaa will always produce vigilante justice anyways, despite that being improper.
Player involvement that I saw so far was incredible. At least 30 or so players that may not have ever interacted with each other chose to do so and got that chance. I saw players I didn't even know existed.

of course, pros and cons - your guy's call.

I'll always cater

[Pierre]

Please do not stop this RP, or any other RP (that abides by PS rules etc.)!!  Bravo, Cairn, for starting this one and especially for posting about it on the forum, so that people who lurk here (like me) know that when they get in game, there is a storyline they can jump into should they so desire.

I get extremely sad by posts like LigH's, who I am sure did not intend to put a damper on an interesting RP, but which have the potential to derail a group effort which many are enjoying.  Really the only thing to do when one of us doesn't like a particular storyline is to start our own story with a narrative that appeals and engages.

I won't say what plots I like or don't like, but I will say that any plot at all is a good thing, especially now.  And I beseech all of us forum creatures to pass over RP threads that don't appeal to us, so that we don't inadvertently dampen the momentum and enthusiasm that such RP generates.

Thanks again, Cairn, for building community and putting your energy and ideas into Yliakum, much appreciated even by someone not taking part in this particular RP 

[Illysia]

Pretty interesting that I got invoked even when I had resolved to just shut up and get in a corner this time, but I won't say that LigH is wrong... he isn't by the way. But I will say that my solution is going to be switching cities. Yes it is more desolate in the other cities but oh well, I really can't deal with this kind of plot. I'm afraid it comes off as mindless mass killing rather than a meaningful story but I don't know about this particular plot since I am largely staying out of it. (That's the simplest way to prevent anymore upheaval and the bitter backbitting and whatnot that went down in the past.) However, I make one request. Please no more killing children. You can make the point that the character is a complete monster without going there. I would feel much better if we could at least draw the line there as a community. Not everything that happens in RL needs to be duplicated.

I want to go to Amdeneir, since it is too nice a city to be as desolate as it is. I'm not sure if it has the cooking tools I need, but if it does, I can opt to only head into hydlaa for OOC training and OOC gathering of herbs. If anyone that wishes to avoid the murders wishes to join me there, feel free to start hanging out there. With the Pterosaur, it is easy to get from there to the other cities so I think that will be a good fit for me. I don't spend much time questing or hunting so it's not a great loss for me. However, I have enough tragedy to keep me occupied in RL, I'm not going to entertain myself with it in addition to that.

[Tessra]

I have to agree with Pierre.  It makes me sad to see a post where someone says "RPs like this are why So-and-So left...."  Not to sound callous, but why should the THIRTY players who have been actively involved in this RP line have that taken away from them because ONE person doesn't like RPs of that nature?  I can appreciate that Illysia is an incredibly skilled player.  She has wonderful ideas, a great deal of planning and organization in running events and has been a great asset to the game.  But Illysia is one player.  If she, or anyone else does not like a specific RP, then she has the freedom not to participate in it.  Please note, I'm not trying to pick on Illysia, I only use her because she is the person mentioned in the prior post.  She herself posted a picture of many players in the tavern, pleased with how there were people RPing in groups again, and as she has just said herself: she's going to simply switch cities, instead of any dramatic expression of displeasure.  THAT reaction is both commendable and mature, and if more players were open-minded in that fashion, I think we'd have a few less problems.

It's not true that it's impossible to ignore the RP because it's too forceful.  I've been online and actively RPing every night this RP line has been taking place, and until someone literally shouted Teshia's name across the plaza, I hadn't had anything to do with it.  There is a great deal to be said for the "Bystander Apathy" phenomenon, and how it can be used in such situations.  It is not necessarily OOC for a character to hear someone crying bloody murder, and simply turn away, not wishing to deal with it.  It doesn't make that character a "bad person," it is in fact human nature to try and push the responsibility for unpleasant situations onto others. 

I don't think it's very fair to say that GMs shouldn't play in player-run plots because it shows favoritism, and in the same breath to say players shouldn't run plots because it isn't liked by another player.  If the GMs are expected to be impartial, then the players should do the same. 

Just something to think about... we have a few different classes of players here on PS.  The two main that I see are the ones who are Ritual players, and those who are Sporadic players. 

For the Ritual players, this type of violent RP can get old.  They see the same types of RPs popping up every week or month, and it can become more of an irritation than a simple, relaxed RP that is possible to simply walk into any day. 

For Sporadic players, who might log in once a week or less, everyday commonplace RPs can be banal and boring.  They may want to see something more exciting than a drink in the tavern or the daily discussions over the forge.

The only solution is to find a balance that accommodates all player types and preferences.  The GM team has started this, with running many different types of events for players to participate in: casinos, engravings, lost tefusanglings, thieves, mages causing mayhem.  The players must do so as well, by having their varied RP plots and to an extent they have; masquerades, tournaments, markets, murders, kidnappings.   

It's common courtesy to simply allow people to play as they see fit, within the settings and rules, and not tell them they shouldn't have a plot because someone else might not like it.  I have a profound respect for players who see fit to plan, implement and run plots and events, even if it's a theme I don't personally enjoy.  So, kudos to players like Illysia and Cairn for the effort they put into the game.  It's that effort that keeps the players we have logging in.   

[LigH]

Sorry for the depressions my opinion caused. Opinions are different. It is hard to avoid annoyances planning an evil plot, and the more subtle the crime shall be, the more preparation a plot requires...

I could have ignored the kind of play I didn't like much. But instead, I tried to play along as good as I could, helping to get it going fast. And the fact that a Hydlaa Guard showed up at the plaza shows that at least one of the GMs agreed in joining. Now, expect the consequences when the killer is caught...

[Illysia]

Thanks Tesrra but disagree slightly on a few points.

On the "why so and so left" part, yes... one monkey doesn't stop the show. However, most of the people using that argument are using one person as a proxy for the hundreds that left. Player count used to be way higher. Plots might have had 30 people at any given time involved in it. I think Moon's uncommon cold RP was like that. Even I manged to stumble into it and I was brand new to RPing at the time. I'm afraid even I have heard people that are into this kind of plot (in general) comment on not wanting to deal with these kinds of plots due to the common execution of this kind of plot. However, that it not to say that you can't make adjustments so that the majority can get on with their day... especially if the majority are already content.

On the hard to ignore thing, if the water supply is poisoned, you don't get magical immunity from disease because you don't want to be bothered. Disease is pretty indiscriminate that way and tends to get out of hand quickly when so many bodies and dead parts and whatnot turn up in quick succession. Slowing down on the actual body parts count would help greatly as you won't have to handwave away certain effects. You can terrorize people without piling up rotting stuff. A little forethought can prevent actions that have consequences that spread to broadly.

On the ritual player and causal RP. I think there is a common misconception that people that fall more or less in this category "don't want/like action" and only sit around and "talk". I'd like to attempt to clear up that idea again. It's a very broad category with a variety of people. Most of the people in it like action same as anyone else, but they expect to spend time dealing with a particular incident longer. It's the difference between episodic conflict in a TV show and long story told over 3 large books. It's irritating because it seems that you haven't finished explaining why you bothered to catch everyone's attention before you start trying to draw their attention to something else. Not to mention not all action/conflict involves maiming and death, you can explore an issue in a variety ways even if the initial premise is death.

However, I believe that it is still possible to keep everyone on the same page... Not easy but possible.

and I think you mean *impressions your opinion caused LigH.

[LigH]

I can't be sorry for impressions. They are always positive.

[Illysia]

I want to just post the smiley but that it against the rules, so I'm putting a sentence in this post too.

[Cairn]

Illy, Tess, Ligh, Pierre - you guys are all super awesome!

All of your opinions are both valid and true. That being said, dust my shoulders of whatever argument you have with me in particular, and bask in the sense of community as well as applaud the common sense and nicety you all have shown!

Ergo, if you don't want to participate, do not! I will not be offended, nor will anyone else
As far as killings go, I sure don't have a problem stepping away from the more brutal ones. Of course it's been established, so those of you with weaker complexions can cease to worry

However, the RP will go on. It is an RP game, ergo - what has been stated.

I love you all, and especially leaders in this community such as you that have posted.

[tman]

I'm a little confused.  Has the murderer found a way to always truekill everyone? I was under the impression that when someone dies their body and all their possessions are transported to the death realm.  How are people finding corpses everywhere?

[Cairn]

Not always. There is a mix of actual player deaths, and then the bookdeaths - those corpses found in possible state of True Death. Of course, there is a mix of ways to cause True Death, in particular poisons.

I would never force true death on an actual player unless pre-arranged and agreed to for some reason. I never force death, even, mutilation, or anything permanent.

[Tessra]

It is said that there are certain poisons, instant incineration, and certain diseases which are capable of causing true death. 

And sure, hundreds of people have left the game, but it's not simply because there were RPs they didn't like.  There's much more to it: platform, progress on the mechanics, balancing, the GM/Devs, conflicts with other players, computer problems/not good enough specs, etc... There are so very many reasons, that it's not accurate to say "most/lots of/too many people leave because of RPs like this."  I see RPs every day that I don't like, or don't want to participate in.  Guess what, I just keep walking. Or, if it's something that my character dislikes as well, she RPs her dislike, which invariably results in an amusing interaction between characters.

Bottom line: We all need to be considerate and willing to compromise, and appreciative of the people who do go above and beyond to make the game fun and entertaining for others.   

[Illysia]

Oh sure there were tons of reasons for all the people, but even this forum alone is full of the complaints and leaving threads of many people that left simply for RP reasons. Let alone the ones on other forums and just in complaining during chatting. This is the internet. Things still rarely end with most people simply turning their head when they dislike something. It's just that it took awhile to get to this low and stay this low.  However, you are right about this:

Bottom line: We all need to be considerate and willing to compromise, and appreciative of the people who do go above and beyond to make the game fun and entertaining for others.   

[Indygo]

[Sorry, not trying to hijack this thread, if there is a more fitting place for this comment please move it. 

I typically do not get involved in the back and forth of forum disagreements, my posting history will show that. However in regards to the topic of RP, the lack thereof, and the way it should be done (which I have seen in numerous posts) I have to say I am a little frustrated.

I have been gone for some time now.  I came back to test the waters and to me it seems there is a general desire for role play.  I hear it from quite a few that I have spoken with in the past few weeks that I have been in game.  They want something to get involved in.  The dev team has made great progress in creating the environment to support and nurture it from what I have seen in my short time back.

I thought a good way to kick off my return to the game would be to introduce a little role play about my book that is missing.  Unfortunately I am not very encouraged about the participation regardless of my efforts to get people involved.  On a positive note members from the Way of the Hammer among a few other friends from the past have actively participated and I greatly appreciate it, but the whole point of it was to get people involved that may not necessarily interact otherwise and maybe a chance for me to meet some of the residents that are new to me.  I am not saying that everyone should be involved because I say so, perhaps I am overlooking something that I am doing wrong.

Rewards whether tria or items never seem to garner much attention (this has happened with past RPs for me as well).  What I find puzzling is yet another serial murder, vampire, zombie, poisoning, etc plot explodes.  I am not discouraging or degrading the plot I just don’t understand why the darker themes seem to be the only RPs that get this type of attention.  Maybe if plots with less ominous storylines were supported and had more involvement from players we would see more of the regular day to day type storylines develop? 

As far as criminal/evil plot driving people from the city, it is a typical response to a city in decay.  History has shown time and time again that people with the means to leave a city in decline will do so while the others are caught in the despair.  The response for people to leave Hydlaa because of these kinds of happenings would be typical in any other place IRL.  On the flip side, I would think a city like Ojaveda would be a more likely place for things like this to occur instead of in a city that is supposed to be the pinnacle of the civilization…

Sorry tried to be as brief as possible.  Happy RPing!!!  ]


(edited for content/spelling)

[Cairn]

What a wonderful, thoughtful reply! Thank you, Indygo.

Here however is the sad truth. Each plot has layers, like yours. The entire story involving the serial killer, wulfar, etc. has multiple layers that players can choose to interact on. The top layer of course is mostly senseless. As you dig deeper, you find a whole lot more meaning. In fact, read excerpts from "Bjornsted" in the storywriting section, and you may get an interesting feel.

With your plot, it's similiar. It has multiple layers involving you and your character, Indygo the dwarf. Players choose to interact on whatever layer, from ignoring, to random chatting, to interaction, to helping, to solving the mystery - it's all player's choice base.

The sad fact of it is, for both of our RPs, most players will never interact beyond the most accessible layer. For you, it's especially a pity because as you said, those are the RPs that can be more meaningful. Of course, there's thrill in taking down a bad guy, but there's an actual meaningful bond made between characters when it involves the things that yours does.

I for one am glad you brought attention to your plot. I would love to get more involved! As always, the advice I give new players is to make yourself accessible - PS doesn't come to you, unfortunately. Always be a person that starts RP and gives it the extra shove to keep it going. Put the time and effort in to make it great for other players, and you'll receive a tremendous amount in return, whether it be self satisfaction, deeper bonds with players, or just the knowledge of a job well done.

In regards to your "city in decay" theory, yes and no. PSeco doesn't work very close to ours. There are times where they overlap and seem similar, but truth be told, that's not often the case.

People that play, or even find PlaneShift tend to be the dungeon master/hardcore rper/text based RP sort. (i know there are also several different types, just raise your hands!), and these folks crave adventures of the hack/n/slash, evil plot, mastermind variety. Duraza was a great example of this, UtM was even a great example of this. They fed deep, twisted plots to the people and they were gobbled up. Of course they're not meaningful, they're just popcorn and movie fun, but that's what a lot of people come for.

Those of you who feed Julia Roberts/Richard Gere stuff are to be commended! I try, on a daily basis, with a lot of my characters to do those same plots. Daily things, daily interactions, and meaningful ones at that.
But the factoids remain that sometimes people come here to get away from that, and to get lost in another world where dragons (gobbles) roam free!

Also, as far as player participation for the "calmer" events goes, there have in the past been great participation for RCD events, masquerade balls, etc. etc. It's just there isn't a group of people who do those as much anymore. I challenge you to do such!

[Simple Psych note: Everyone wants to be awesome. The want to be awesome usually overrules the want to give it out.]

And as always, there's just the morality of good vs. evil here. If you like good, you'll dislike bad plots. If you like bad, you'll shy away from good plots. If you're impartial, you'll try and get involved in both