The Gods Must Be Angry-DEBATE

[Illysia]

I'm thinking we should ask Lilu to make the discussion into a new thread elsewhere. It's actually a very good discussion, and unlike the past, it hasn't turned nasty. And for that reason, please don't say "good or bad rp" out loud... it invokes the trolls.

I apologize in advance to the people that don't know to expect forum dissertations from me.
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You make a good point Cairn. The layers thing is sad, but I really don't think we just have to be resigned to only having people just scratch the surface and walk away. Also, kudos for being that optimistic as I used to always be the RP initiator and optimistic, but after awhile of giving and the result not being very rewarding to me, it kinda just made me bitter and upset at wasted effort. Unfortunately, I had a decent amount of company in that feeling. But this current community might not produce that harsh a result. It seems more relaxed actually.

[Simple Psych note: Everyone wants to be awesome. The want to be awesome usually overrules the want to give it out.]

And as always, there's just the morality of good vs. evil here. If you like good, you'll dislike bad plots. If you like bad, you'll shy away from good plots. If you're impartial, you'll try and get involved in both

Ok, here is a place where I have a bit of a complaint, not against you, but against the way plots typically get treated. I'll preface the following with the fact that I understand that my playing the game as a way to observe personalities is just my preference, and I don't expect everyone to do it. I love character studies, but that is just one way to approach the matter.

Yes, people want to be awesome. However, I partially blame modern games for setting up the expectation that each player is the most important person in the story and that the whole story depends on them and them alone. It complicates things in an MMO setting since you are inherently part of multiple intersecting stories, and everyone can't be the star. In this case, I'd like to the challenge people to shift focus slightly, and think less how your character is progressing the story and more on how the story is progressing around your character and how the story might be changing your character. I'm not sure if what I mean is clear, but I'll try to clarify.

When I play Zandral moping around in the tavern, I'm actually not doing it to draw much attention to Zandral's story but rather to add a different kind of character into the mix. Advancing her story is a bit difficult without certain other characters in play, but characters that come into the tavern now have a moody character to add to the general scenery. They also have a chance to help shape her as well. Her character is a result of the RPs she has been in, and even now, new RPs are changing her. If characters interact with her, she can be a source of conflict without actually being a danger. If they care enough to dig, there is a story, but even if they don't she brings variety to the scene.

When I play Danao, I play him to give people a new scenario to work with. He does have a relatively simple backstory, but his real purpose is to create a scenario where a character has to decide how to react to a male character that they mistook for female and all the interesting gendered scenarios that arise from that. He's not a plot device for advancing a particular story so much as a twist that can be added to any story that he happens to cross. Admittedly, for most people, doing this constantly would probably drive them crazy, but I think this is the key to doing the "daily" things. Be a section of the story, not necessarily the main plot of the story.

I distinctly remember that what I liked about characters from the past was that many of them were unique in personality and how they reacted to things, more so than how they acted. (and I do mean to draw a distinction between "action" and "reaction") A character might act a certain way and create a certain story when left to their own devices, but as soon as you start throwing in other characters and scenarios, you start diverging from that and making a completely new story because they have stopped acting and started reacting. It changes the story from linear to dynamic because each character's actions trigger a cascade of different reactions and possible new scenarios.

Nowadays, I often find it hard to tell where the break is between one scenario reaction and the next with other characters. Not only does it seem linear, but also like it's the same action line in most cases. However, I do believe this is due to a limited amount of scenarios being played out. There was a certain excitement, for me at least, just in seeing how the different characters could react to the same prompt, especially when they were all in close quarters at the time. It was also exciting to watch a scenario diverge wildly from what you expected due to a new element coming in and starting a new cascade of possibilities, even when it was my own plot.

I'm afraid that with the way plots are done now, it really feels like you could put any collection of characters together and roll pretty much the same story every time. It seems like you don't get to see the distinction between one dark way mage and another, for instance, or one murderer and another, or one character running to the defense of the city/people and another. They might have different back stories and they may feel differently about things but put them in a plot and they magically become interchangeable.

I blame this, partially, on the fact that plots have a tendency to be good/bad, and it pigeonholes the characters involved in them. That brings me to the next thing I take issue with. Limiting plots to good/bad simplifies things more than is necessary to keep a plot manageable. It also makes for type cast roles of "hero" and "bad guy" which lead to the interchangeability problem I complain about. If your character is "good" and takes the "hero" role, that leaves a handful of probably predictable actions. That, in turn, makes the story dull since it is pretty much scripted before it is even started, especially if it is the same formula as the last 5 that proceeded it. I understand that if you have limited time this might be more appealing, but you can still have meaningful interactions with stories that progress whether you are around or not, even in short bursts. "Daily" type RPs help with that because it leaves a space for your character to jump back in later.

Also, liking "good" plots and your character being "good" doesn't mean you will only get into "good" plots. Telnavi was a "good" character, for all intents and purposes. That didn't stop her from being an informant for Xeonart, or working for the outlaws. I prefer to stay on the "good" side of things, Telnavi herself never did anything more nefarious than flirt shamelessly, and yet, she found herself right smack dab in the middle of less than good things without it being terribly awkward or problematic for me.

There is so much complexity that can affect a character's actions that I never think it's a good idea to think in terms of good/bad, but rather, think in terms of your character's personality. It's why I wrote out the character context check a few months ago. If you force your character to work in only one or two contexts, good/bad and maybe family life, it makes it really hard to branch out beyond that. But, if you have in mind several contexts, and you toss different ones out there from time to time. You can use your character and other people's character's to tell some very unique and compelling stories. The kind you will still want go back and read, down to the last one, several years from now.


There's 50 million more points I could make but I'll have mercy on the 3 people that make it this far without skimming.

[Mariana Xiechai]

Illysia (and others), in the most cordial fashion possible, I'd suggest just taking this discussion somewhere else. As it is the thread is already horribly  . We don't need to continue in the super-long posts about explanations here, which, judging by the previous posts by the author, is probably supposed to be an IC thread. Thus, brackets [ ]. Just start another thread.

[Illysia]

I'm thinking we should ask Lilu to make the discussion into a new thread elsewhere.

A mod can simply move all the off topic posts. It will be much better for this thread to just take what is here and move it rather than leave it here. Making a new thread and starting up there right now will potentially mean someone having to read through, here, to make sure everything makes sense in the new thread when a move happens. It's a sleeker process to leave things in order here and ask for mod intervention.

[Naira]

Well, I'll have to say is I'm glad I found a thread that is meant for the recent killings popping up in Hydlaa. My character Naira has no intention in staying around Hydlaa while such events are going on. She keeps her head low when such things are going on. But as my RL me, I'm interested in seeing where it all goes. Plus side I have some tidbits to give me clues as to when things may be getting fired up or cooling down. So that Naira can run about the city of Hydlaa if for even just a PS game night. So all in all I would like to conclude. Bravo to those taking part in this rp, whether it is reacting to the events or organizing. And to those of us who play characters that would not get involved for whatever reasons that may be, well maybe I'll have an extra chance to running into you while we steer clear of Hydlaa.

But specifically to all the investigators and body part distributors, please do keep up with adding bits of information here on where the bunny trial goes !

[Cairn]

Precisely. There was definite diversity, and there still is. The whole deal with that is as you mentioned, it's become a vicious cycle because of the cliques.

The real problem here isn't plots, lack of, or type. It's that the people who run them only play with each other. That's why I made this plot, irregardless of type, was to simply expand the horizons of others. Nothing like a good masquerade ball or vicious person to rally a community.

It's like Evirea posted, ICly. Don't be afraid Hydlaa, ICly. Don't be afraid, Yliakum, OOCly. Perhaps not fear, but lack of interaction, or simply tucking it away as another plot.

You know why? Because when/if you choose to interact in this plot, it's the aftereffects, the ripples that really create the community.

a cycle down the road, you may have the daily interactions of the new friends that met because of this. You'll have the romances, drama, and the tension as a result of the people who've gotten to RP with each other simply because of this (and other) plots.

You can't have 'too much' RP. I don't care what the state of RP in PS is, or who wants what type of plot, really.

I just want the community, man. Give me that, and I'm set. The 30 people who've never met before this plot are gonna have a chance to make something waaaay more beautiful than a few days worth of killings. Look already at what characters are choosing to do! This is reaction! This is real, raw, everyday reactions! What more could you want?

Personally, I am living it. I've never wanted to be a star, which you correctly surmise to be a result of modern day gaming (and western society, even.), I want others to be it. I make plots to make community to make plots to make community.

Back in 'the day' that you speak of, people did exactly the same thing. Guess what? people didn't like it. It made PS what it is, though.

Naira's response is as clarion as a call as it gets: bravo to those taking part, whether as a reaction or as organizers. To those who won't get involved for whatever reasons - I'll see you around! This is expansion!

This is reaction! My work here is done

[Illysia]

Hehe, I disagree but glad you are happy. I really think the problem is the type of plot, most of the regular RPers now seem to actually RP with each other. However, it always seems like it is roughly the same story each time. But, for what it is worth, I will be the first to admit the Ball had little actual effect on the community, other than bringing people in close quarters for awhile but not necessarily bringing them any closer together. As far as I can tell, it hasn't cascaded into a blessed thing.

I'll wait and see. I don't think this plot will spawn much more than more "baddie" hunting but I will keep an open mind about it. I'm afraid that I've grown accustomed to a style of RPing where we create the actors in a story but let the stories write themselves. It's simply not as fun for me if I already know the large plot points already, but If some people are happy with that way, I say enjoy it.

I will be collecting people that still like the old way in Amdeneir and people are free to drop in and look. Those that don't like it can work with the Hydlaa plot, and I suppose together we'll keep PS populated.

[Eonwind]

But, for what it is worth, I will be the first to admit the Ball had little actual effect on the community, other than bringing people in close quarters for awhile but not necessarily bringing them any closer together.

I don't agree with this, at least for me the ball opened new opportunities to find new friend ICly and OOCly. I liked the masquerade ball idea so much.

[Cairn]

Yeah, I'd have to go with Eon on that one. I know that it brought a lot of new people together.

And as far as Old-style RPers...

yeah, they're still around. Along with the new style ones, who are just as good, and hopefully get involved in both Amdeneir and Hydlaa!

And I hope the plot spawns more than just baddy hunting, I really do! I've layered it to be able to produce quite a bit more, so we'll just see how everyone digs in to it. The killings is just the tip of an iceberg, as the rest of the plot is far less violent and much more social based. I just needed a quick, surefire way to gather a lot of people. The rest is history!

[Illysia]

It's not like it was a failure, because Aiwe and several behind the scenes helpers were there to make sure it wasn't , but it didn't do what I was arranging it for. Even I couldn't put as much into it as I had intended since I had to do stuff for it and finals at the same time. But if some people got more than simply a reason to show up on those days that's good.

As long as there is more than senseless killing, I leave you to leading people to RP via killing. For what it is worth, they may end up needing to go to Amdeneir to buy something for the pain from Zandral.

[Aiwendil]

Also, as far as player participation for the "calmer" events goes, there have in the past been great participation for RCD events, masquerade balls, etc. etc.

It's not like it was a failure, because Aiwe and several behind the scenes helpers were there to make sure it wasn't ;)...

Sure you two...drag me into this. :/

But after reading the thread now I can't have a few things here uncommented. RCD events are not a good example for any kind of event at all in my view. They were just exactly what the GM team forced us to do to keep the Den. We had to do "neutral" events that allowed everyone to participate. The real interesting RP around the Den was going on at other times. But if you really want to categories RCD events then it's probably better to categories them as baddie events as they were all build on lies and intrigues executed by leaders of a criminal organization (and at times included some violence as well..just never in public and usually only with players around who were asked if they are fine with that kind of RP. No way that anything of that would have made it on the forums here).

It's just there isn't a group of people who do those as much anymore. I challenge you to do such!

And at the moment there is simply no point in doing such kinds of RP at all. The attention span of players is too short to do anything complex and people are more interested in self-contained RP events than on-going RPs that weren't preplanned.

Here however is the sad truth. Each plot has layers, like yours. The entire story involving the serial killer, wulfar, etc. has multiple layers that players can choose to interact on. The top layer of course is mostly senseless. As you dig deeper, you find a whole lot more meaning. In fact, read excerpts from "Bjornsted" in the storywriting section, and you may get an interesting feel.

With your plot, it's similiar. It has multiple layers involving you and your character, Indygo the dwarf. Players choose to interact on whatever layer, from ignoring, to random chatting, to interaction, to helping, to solving the mystery - it's all player's choice base.

The sad fact of it is, for both of our RPs, most players will never interact beyond the most accessible layer. For you, it's especially a pity because as you said, those are the RPs that can be more meaningful. Of course, there's thrill in taking down a bad guy, but there's an actual meaningful bond made between characters when it involves the things that yours does.

People don't get "beyond the most accessible" layer because it are artificially created layers. No...you shouldn't have to read any stories to grasp the depth of a plot. And no, plot depth should not be determined in advance. The depth of plots comes from actually playing the game, not planing in advance. I never really noticed a problem with players not getting in the depth of the plot...because there were always players already there. Let's take the Theater play we did in the Den. On the most obvious layer it was just a entertainment show for the masses. A lot of people who came to get entertained and enough people who got involved with the planning and auditions. Plenty of RP possibilities there with plenty of "side-plots" like a guildmember of Monala as actor reminding Aiw all the time what she is about to steal. ;)

But then of course this play had a very interesting topic...one that Lhaa and Aiwendil were not aware of at all. It was written by Orgonwukh as a reaction to an incident involving Imperial Guard [yeah...that long ago, back when Dark Empire was still split in several guilds] and his son. The theater play mocking the Imperial Guards like this and Lady Greenmoon in the first row in the audience was bound to lead to some "smaller troubles" between the Outlaws (who back then ran the Red Crystal Den) and the Dark Empire. Of course it didn't help that Lady Greenmoon was quite suspicious about the management of the Den already before that. Result: Several "accidents" among outlaws and DE members and in the long term it was one of the IC reasons for the Outlaws/RCD split. Not to mention all the "sub-layers" resulting from this like the mistrust of Telnavi because she dated a DE member (who flirted with Aiw before that btw Illy :P) or the raise of Rigwyn within the OLs. People with access to that layer: All OLs, all DEs and a few bystanders who got the trust of one of those organizations. This whole "layer" was merely a "accident"...nobody really thought about it before. It was just good timing that DE got very active again around the time we did that theater play. At the time we made the decision to do the Theater play as first event no DE member was around in game at all. But because it rooted in old stories all this became possible.

Different layer..but same event. Semutara vs. Lhaa/Aiw. Orgonwukh wrote the play, I hope OOCly we made that clear enough...but ICly we "forgot" to mention that on purpose most of the time...and pissed Orgonwukh and his girlfriend Semutara off by this. (Okay, not only this. This whole story if far more complicated...with Orgonwukh having killed a close friend of Lhaa but only Aiwendil knowing this, the downfall of the Mind's eye collective, Semutara being...Semutara, Org sleeping on the floor in front of Aiws bed... ;))Result: Fire in the Den, Power struggle within the Outlaws, a lot if intrigues and lies (again not true we never RPed Illy...even if we didn't succeed we tried to get Zandral to convince Marq it would be the right time to move against Org back then). Involved players: All RCD staff, all Outlaws, plenty of others...on both sides. Again nothing of this was planned. The theater play event was just the last spark an ongoing RP needed to "escalate"

The point is...none of those layers were created by a single person. They developed in game and because of that always had enough people with access to them. That's something you can never achieve with a preplanned plot.


Now to the masquerade ball:
Well, I think that event did well what was it's purpose...giving some old players a reason to join PS for a few days to meet old friends and maybe spark a few RP conversations among the active player base. Illysia did a very good job there, but I never doubted that at all. Compared to running the Stonehead that event was a piece of cake. But again it shouldn't serve as example for other events...it had some major flaws. First of all it was just anther "self-contained" event. The chars we used for this event were more or less created specifically for this event and their story was OOCly agreed on. Not that we had any other chance...we both didn't play PS at all back then so had to use new chars but it is a prefect example for bad events. Stories just created to serve an event...nothing more. On the other hand I not as pessimistic about not being able to go through with everything...my biggest problem with the end was that I wasn't prepared to kiss a char of Illy (*runs very, very fast*). I think the way those two chars acted were kind of fine. Mostly they just acted as moderators in the event giving other players the chance to present their skills. They also didn't push the event story by all means...I think only those players who really wanted to get involved in the story did while the rest could easily just ignore it. But of course Illy is right about us not having enough time for the event...we had to improvise a lot just because we had no time to do it the right way.

Last but not least...the endless killing and violence in PS.
Actually I don't have much to say there. All examples I have seen of this in PS are very poorly done and plain boring. In most cases it's just violence for the fun of it. But from the looks of it that's what players want so all my (and others) efforts in the past to make baddies more realistic seem to have failed. But not really a big deal to ignore it in game...Illysia did a good start by just moving to another town I think. The only thing I really dislike is that "My character sneezed...I must post it on the forums" attitude. If you really want to post everything your char does then create an blog for it and just post the link once. This is even more true with RPs that involve violence. RP takes place in the game...not on the forums. And RP is collective story writing..not one person presenting his superior writing skills to others.

Edit: Getting rid of stupid smiles

[Cairn]

You're killing me, smallses! I'm killing me too..., so let's go back to basics. Semantics and opinion aside, we can re-start the debate and you all can pick at these points as you see fit:

1.) I made this plot to gather RPers together. Not for the sake of fluffing my own pride or senseless killings, but to break a few molds and rally the people who don't get to play with others that often.
*Semantics: I take full responsibility for people liking and disliking it, as it is my doing. Rail it on me, ladies and gents.

2.) There needs to be more of this type of plot! Not the killings, but just...bigger ones that more people get into!

3.) Quality of RP in PlaneShift has absolutely not gone down. We'll always look fondly upon whatever 'golden days' we participated in (my favorite period was 07-09), but it is an absolute insult to the players now to say they are any less than the players then. Different perhaps, but no better or worse.
*Semantics: the key here is the word different. There's so many ways to take, play, and enjoy PlaneShift, it's wrong to say yours or anyone else's is better.

4.) Everyone keeps getting hung up on the apparent stupidity of this plot. I take that as it comes, because right now, the plot's first layer isn't all that apparent. The few of you who have gotten to RP with the killer may realize more. Those who don't, well of course it's thin and offending. Deal with it. Life's thin and offending as it goes. Take this opportunity to react accordingly, and enjoy your time in it!

5.) Improvise! Aiwendil is most correct when he states that the best RPs are not pre-planned for reactions. Neither is mine! There's just alot of reactions that you can have to it, and that's what I meant by layers - not that I have it set to where if ___ then ___, rather, it's a completely evolving storyline. Each RP in PlaneShift is, and those who try to bend it to their will are always unsuccessful and always brutalized.

6.) You may disagree with my methods, but focus on the results. The results thus far is a mixed bag: Illysia dislikes it OOCly, so she posts as such. That's all well and good and Zandral doesn't like the results, and thus goes to Amdeneir. That's neither good nor bad, simply reaction. Cool. Other characters are interested, therefore form a group and talk about it and how to solve it. That's all well and good, ICly, because it's a natural thing. OOCly, it's caused a veritable dungstorm on the forums, which I don't mind, because at least everyone gets the chance to throw some dung on the heap. Life'll go on, feelings will get hurt, but hey, that's PlaneShift!

7.) Participation is key. You'll get bad, biased information if you don't take part. OOC/IC leak, baby - RP's killer right there.

KEY POINT 8.) This all boils down to opinion. You like it, or you don't. I like hearing opinions though, so keep em coming.

Subplot Notes:

@ Aiwendil: I agree with you to a point. The key point of contention for me is that you have such disdain for the events that the GMs made you run. Those were a key high for a lot of people outside of the OL guild, and introduced OLers to a lot of new friends/enemies/relations. I know, being a member of the OL off and on at points throughout time, that the OL has always been a decent guild. You can't deny there were times where it fell prey to the clique and elitist attitude, however. There are prime examples of that as far as the eye can see.

Also can't deny they furthered RP more than many other guilds, though. So they had/have their ups and downs.

b.) (see above in context), I don't particulary care either way. Everyone was great, blah dee blah.
intrigue and suspicion still abound in PS, Aiw. So does obviousness. You have to have both to make a real, living world. Don't bash on either one, because it falls to opinion again - you like one way better than you like another.

I'll not make illustrations. Simply put, I take part in both. Your call whether you do to. (This isn't so much directed to you, Aiwendil, as it is to a general reader. I know you're not active as the term goes.)

*sigh*. And addressing your "all your efforts" point.

Damn. Seriously? That just rips on everyone in this game. Are you that biased in saying that your realism is any better than theirs or mine?

C'mon now. Yes, I'm goading you. Flaming, some may call it. But it's called for, I think, after that.
*there will always be an imbalance when it comes to this side of the game, because we don't have a large population to provide all the different facets of society.

You were a /great/ bad guy RPer. Realistic, to a fault. Intrigue, suspense, real reaction - that was you! Commendable, to be sure. I enjoyed playing with you, and it was a highlight for me.

Does that make you better? No. RP IS and must REMAIN RP. How one person chooses to RP in a game will NEVER make it better than ANYONE else's RP, ever. Equality must reign supreme, else there will always be elitism and asshattery.

There is realism in a petty offense, a brutal offense, a senseless offense, and each and every crime that is committed in PlaneShift, or in the real world. It is by choice that the players and the real criminals choose to commit them, therefore they are real. A ten year old may kill his friend because of a chemical imbalance, or even petty jealousy. For a ten year old to hop on PlaneShift and go out and kill someone because of petty jealousy or chemical imbalance does not make him any less a great RPer than the legends of this game. Killing for want is even real. I've worked with psychotics who kill because they have that desire to, with no reason or other rhyme. I've played with each side, trust you me.


The only thing that I will ever hold offense against is:

RP with no reason at all/trolling/killing because you /want/ to OOCly.

All that being said, I apologize for burned feelers.

P.S.
Love the note on any one person's skills, Aiw. That is wonderful and true.
It's a collective, post collective efforts

[Illysia]

Also, as far as player participation for the "calmer" events goes, there have in the past been great participation for RCD events, masquerade balls, etc. etc.

I think my issue with using those would be that there was techincally great "player turn out" more so than participation. In most cases, people would show up to be entertained, sit there, and then leave. But oh well.

Sure you two...drag me into this. :/

Well you did help me the most, but I can just not thank you next time.

And at the moment there is simply no point in doing such kinds of RP at all. The attention span of players is too short to do anything complex and people are more interested in self-contained RP events than on-going RPs that weren't preplanned.

I agree and disagree. There is a point in doing it, you just aren't likely to get much back for your efforts and I think we have burned out enough on that topic.

(Now skip some comments from me on layers, Org and Sem, Lhaa and Aiwe, and stuff since it's not terribly relevant at this particular point.)

Now to the masquerade ball:
Well, I think that event did well what was it's purpose...giving some old players a reason to join PS for a few days to meet old friends and maybe spark a few RP conversations among the active player base.

Well, that was in there but actually that wasn't what I had intended it for. I was hoping to spawn a series of events. I was hoping that if people saw one, they would be moved to do their own larger scale events and would ask for help if they didn't know how... :/ I would have settled for them doing more smaller scale events that were more accessible to people that weren't already involved. I think there might have been one or two of those but I was hoping it would become more common.

On the other hand I not as pessimistic about not being able to go through with everything...my biggest problem with the end was that I wasn't prepared to kiss a char of Illy (*runs very, very fast*). I think the way those two chars acted were kind of fine. Mostly they just acted as moderators in the event giving other players the chance to present their skills. They also didn't push the event story by all means...I think only those players who really wanted to get involved in the story did while the rest could easily just ignore it. But of course Illy is right about us not having enough time for the event...we had to improvise a lot just because we had no time to do it the right way.

Aww... Edaru was so cute though. I didn't have much story because I didn't want to impose on the stories that players wanted to create during that event. Imagine my surprise that people didn't really feel like jumping in like people in the past did. Not only did I not have the problem of fighting people to keep them on track, we ended up being left hanging and had to rush to put more of our story in place and also to try and tie it up once most players seemed less inclined to do anything other than stand there and hallucinate. Thank goodness for the players that did perform and try to sell at the market as we could only compensate so much for that. It was a lot of work just to set up the ball, much more to try and play all parts. However, I stick out that some of the older players probably didn't do more because they didn't want to step on my toes and make me yell at them for ruining my event. And there was one story that someone wanted to tell, but fortunately, they took the killing to the other side of the city wall.

3.) Quality of RP in PlaneShift has absolutely not gone down. We'll always look fondly upon whatever 'golden days' we participated in (my favorite period was 07-09), but it is an absolute insult to the players now to say they are any less than the players then. Different perhaps, but no better or worse.
*Semantics: the key here is the word different. There's so many ways to take, play, and enjoy PlaneShift, it's wrong to say yours or anyone else's is better.

...

Damn. Seriously? That just rips on everyone in this game. Are you that biased in saying that your realism is any better than theirs or mine?

I think there is another breakdown in understanding of what each other is talking about. What constituted a good RP and what wasn't a good RP wasn't dependent on a single person or just their opinion but rather a general consensus on a single standard that has since been lost in transition. It used to be passed down from the older players but then a bunch of players left at the same time for different reasons. Almost all of us that complain about not using this standard had to come to the point of accepting it. It's not like we started RPing with that standard. We picked it up from the people we saw RPing that were considered the "good RPers" and they were as varied as now. But it helped keep everyone on the same page and smoothed out interaction between different RP focus (good, bad, talking, hunting, whatever). I'm not sure what everyone else's impression was, but my impression of the standard was that you:

1. Never preplan. It's considered bad form
2. Create a character that is distinct in behavior. You can have 20 mages if you still tell them apart by how they act. Same for barflys...
3. Don't godmod. It's rude.
4. Don't do anything that wouldn't make sense in the context of the RPs going on around you. You are a section of the story, not the story.
5. If you see a character, that you don't recognize, that seems to follow this standard, chances are, it's just the alt of someone you already know of or RP with.

The reason the killings are problematic is not because of some perceived ineptitude, but rather, there is no way you can logically have that much killing and not have the Octarch declare martial law and put the clamp on everything going on in that city. It fits within settings, but not logically. The amount of killing that always get promoted in Hydlaa would leave merchants and citizens abandoning the city to save their lives. It would not be a suitable capital for the most powerful person on the level. Tourism would slow incredibly and it all would ruin the city. This goes back to the section of story thing.

A single killing or a few can be overlooked, several in quick succession becomes problematic, but the years of Hydlaa being the murder capital of the game is just silly. Especially considering the brutality often involved.

OOCly, it's caused a veritable dungstorm on the forums, which I don't mind, because at least everyone gets the chance to throw some dung on the heap. Life'll go on, feelings will get hurt, but hey, that's PlaneShift!
...
C'mon now. Yes, I'm goading you. Flaming, some may call it. But it's called for, I think, after that.
...

This does not even begin to rank as a "dungstorm" on this forum.

[Eonwind]

Interesting discussion going on. I just want to add a few of my thoughts.
RP without a purpose is an empty shell and the main purposes for me are: have fun, get to know yourself better, get to know the others around you better and meet new friends (add yours).
That said if pre-planning fulfill the above purposes it's good, if not it's not.
Just remember in any RP there's always and there will always be pre-planning, however small. There are no coincidences without a past.

That said, serial-killing is not my favorite kind of RP but I hope as many people as possible can enjoy it nonetheless.

[Cairn]

Illy, I really like that post! It makes a lot of sense, and you're definitely right.

Aiw, definitely sorry if I took your post out of context, it probably seems like I did looking back on it :p

And my context is simply it's a game, I want everyone to get to know each other. Sorry for any hardcore purists I offended, etc.

Doubtless there will be chiding posts saying "well, shoulda pre-planned it out more man!"

[Illysia]

The problem is not so much the planning but the scripting. Maybe a vocabulary change is needed here. If you make a certain character that reacts certain ways, like zandral is probably going to be either cranky or aloof, then you stick them into a scene/scenario, like having her interact with a character that irritates her but she if forced to interact with them, the a story will form itself. Better to leave the planning to setting up a scenario like say loopy Nolthrir bringing a party to the city and then you start working out from there as you are in the RP.

For my context, the RP is for the purpose of telling the story of Yliakum even more so than getting people to interact. We create a dynamic and compelling world even if not everyone directly interacts with each other. It's like reading a book to me. But each little story needs to be coherent to tell a consistent story across the world, so everyone needs a similar standard to work off of to tie everything together.