Author Topic: The "I'm Bored" Conversation Thread  (Read 196967 times)

Illysia

  • Forum Addict
  • *
  • Posts: 2774
    • View Profile
Re: The "I'm Bored" Conversation Thread
« Reply #255 on: May 14, 2013, 09:30:32 am »
While there are many god puppets out there, that doesn't mean it's mutually exclusive with their being actually deities. Admitedly, a deity that malicious and sadistic would present the same problems as a human with those tendencies.

I think the issue in the middle east is silly because after all these years they haven't resolved the issue. Religion isn't the real trouble, it's just a veneer for the underlying hate, distrust, and grief; honestly, you take away religion and something else will quickly get thrown in its place to keep the conflict going. There will always be a justification of some sort. But to be fair, every country and people have some sort of "trouble" that they somehow justify continuing by any means necessary.

Now about religions weighing in on medical issues and such, the problem is whether or not the person knew they were getting into that at the beginning and were ok with that and whether or not there wasn't an alternative or option than can compensate for potential damages. If the person is fully aware of a particular position and agreed to live by that then that is a matter of free will. Also, medicine advances, often times doctors pioneer new techniques due in part to working with people who have concerns over particular procedures.

I can live with religions endorsing practices at least to a point but the person needs to be informed and prepared to take the consequences either way, be that consequences from having a procedure or consequences for defying/leaving a religion. However, trying to work against religions endorsing a particular view gets into slippery territory. If one says that the religion is wrong and one tell the person to do the opposite, how are they different  from the religion, especially when a lot of times the reason for hesitating to take a procedure is due to a person already being leary or scared of the procedure? Not all distrust in medical practices is rooted only in religious beliefs.

In the end you have the let the person use their free will, and if  they are stuck in a cult you have to tread carefully lest you slip into the same tactics as the cult in the name of helping people.

Rigwyn

  • Prospects
  • Forum Addict
  • *
  • Posts: 2033
  • ...
    • View Profile
Re: The "I'm Bored" Conversation Thread
« Reply #256 on: May 14, 2013, 11:03:05 am »
While there are many god puppets out there, that doesn't mean it's mutually exclusive with their being actually deities. Admitedly, a deity that malicious and sadistic would present the same problems as a human with those tendencies.

Ok, I have to agree there, though I don't believe in deities.

Quote
I think the issue in the middle east is silly because after all these years they haven't resolved the issue. Religion isn't the real trouble, it's just a veneer for the underlying hate, distrust, and grief; honestly, you take away religion and something else will quickly get thrown in its place to keep the conflict going. There will always be a justification of some sort. But to be fair, every country and people have some sort of "trouble" that they somehow justify continuing by any means necessary.

I agree up to a point. The god-puppet is a tool used to keep people in line, and in some cases to make them ignore/defy reality. Look at the Kamikazes as an example. What made them so dangerous was their belief that if they die in war, they'll get rewarded for it in the afterlife. If you ask me, its better to bring people up on truth than on fiction.

Quote
Now about religions weighing in on medical issues and such, the problem is whether or not the person knew they were getting into that at the beginning and were ok with that


What about those who are born into a religion? They don't have much of a choice if not accepting this way of life means being cast out or shunned.

Quote
and whether or not there wasn't an alternative or option than can compensate for potential damages.

In the case of Jehova Witnesses, its no transfusion period. If you die, too bad. In the case of Christian Scientists, it USED TO BE that one had to just have faith and pray. They changed their stance since then.

Quote
Also, medicine advances, often times doctors pioneer new techniques due in part to working with people who have concerns over particular procedures.

I can't say if this is good or bad. I supposed more ways to treat an illness is good but that does not make the reason for having to spend money on an alternative good.


Quote
However, trying to work against religions endorsing a particular view gets into slippery territory. If one says that the religion is wrong and one tell the person to do the opposite, how are they different  from the religion, especially when a lot of times the reason for hesitating to take a procedure is due to a person already being leary or scared of the procedure? Not all distrust in medical practices is rooted only in religious beliefs.

If the procedure is controversial, terribly new, or if there is logical reason to believe that it is flawed, then by all means once should consider whether or not they wish to have it. One does not need a religious body to make this decision for them.

Quote
In the end you have the let the person use their free will, and if  they are stuck in a cult you have to tread carefully lest you slip into the same tactics as the cult in the name of helping people.

Sometimes one's free will is compromised because of their religious affiliation. Choosing against their religion's mandate can get them kicked out and separated from their family and friends. Not all religions are like this, but some certainly are.

What I find even more scary is what happens when someone who's brought up with fictitious beliefs is put into a position of power that affects me. Do we want a president who hears god talk to him? One who will obey god's every word? What if his *god* is satan? What if its his kooky, deranged imagination?

Do you want your dentist or surgeon making decisions based on what *god*, *angels*, or *demons* are telling them?

Illysia

  • Forum Addict
  • *
  • Posts: 2774
    • View Profile
Re: The "I'm Bored" Conversation Thread
« Reply #257 on: May 14, 2013, 11:38:51 am »
Better to bring people up on truth yes, but, trust me, you start unraveling the "fiction" that people are brought up on and you will unravel a lot more than religion. A great deal of human society is founded and dependent on fiction. Some people just exploit it better than others. Yes religion has been a good tool, but take it away and it will be replaced by another. People who use those basic methods will use any means that they can get their hands on; religion is just dangerous because people will lower their guard easier than in other cases.

You do have a choice about religion, though, in most cases, even if you were born in a religion. Whether or not you really believe is something you should stop and look in to; it would be very sad to take consequences for something you couldn't get behind. There is no opting out in life, there is only taking hits because of conscious decisions and taking hits because you didn't want to take on making the conscious decision. While it can be a very difficult thing if you start to come in conflict with the religious values you were raised with, you have to evaluate which is more important to you... your autonomy, your family, your personal beliefs, ect. Just like with everything else in life, turning your head doesn't solve the problem. Now if we talk about those where they might die if they leave, that is a completely different can of worms from the rest and an even stickier problem for a variety of reasons.

In the case medical stuff, refusing certain treatments but not all treatments is one thing, but refusing all is a completely different beast again. I personally don't support rejecting all medical treatment, but I would have to respect the wishes of someone that did. Remember, they have a right to make a decision and to stand up for that belief. The only alternative if they choose to support a belief like that is to force them against their will which is another slippery slope.

In general, advancing knowledge is always good if it can help people because you don't always have every option available to you. However, while you might not think that it is worthwhile to spend money on that particular medical path does your opinion outweigh the rights of a person who refuses blood transfusions? Should they be denied healthcare because you don't approve? What would you say if it were you in that position and someone wanted to cut funding for research into a medical procedure that you supported but they didn't? Quite truthfully, I believe that is the very issue at the heart of abortion rights and stem cell research except in that case the shoe is on the other foot.

However, a religion making an official statement does not inherently negate a person's free will if they share the same view. For instance, you can say that religions with dietary restrictions limit the rights of the people that adhere to them yet you can also say that people in those religions adhere to those restrictions because they have no desire to eat those things whether or not the religion makes a stand on it or not. The religion could change its mind and drop the restriction, many people would not in turn ignore the old restriction. I remember watching videos in my gender class that talked about the completely covering veils that some muslim women wear, and in it they were very upset about other people coming and trying to tell them what their identity was and how they should express it. They were very passionate about making their own choice about it and it wasn't just a matter of religion.

As regards politicians, in the US there is separation of church and state so you can pursue legal measures to regulate people like you are afraid of, but for others... *shrugs* Rather than worrying about scary religious people, I would say worry about people who exhibit bad judgement. There is a world of scary people with a variety of personal issue out there and you just have to live it to a certain extent. Most of the people that you would have disagreements with will completely fly under your radar unless very specific issues come up.

However, at this point I need to head to bed. I am making stupid typos now, I'm sure my ability to think will soon follow. :/ Nighty Rig o/

Rigwyn

  • Prospects
  • Forum Addict
  • *
  • Posts: 2033
  • ...
    • View Profile
Re: The "I'm Bored" Conversation Thread
« Reply #258 on: May 14, 2013, 11:47:38 am »
Good points... nn Illy o/

Rigwyn

  • Prospects
  • Forum Addict
  • *
  • Posts: 2033
  • ...
    • View Profile
Re: The "I'm Bored" Conversation Thread
« Reply #259 on: May 15, 2013, 12:52:00 am »

Getting off the topic of religions and moving to something related but different.....

SIMULACRUM (simulacra): Something that replaces reality with its representation.

So... the world as we understand it is just that  - our understanding, or mental map of reality. Our mental map of the world has limitations: We can only see a small portion of visible light, we can only see those things that are in our line of sight, we can only hear some of the sounds that our world makes, and likewise, we are prone to misinterpreting what we sense.

For example: We watch the news to see what's happening in the world. The news is an example of simulacrum. Its not the world as it is, but rather someone else's interpretation of the world. Its accuracy has natural limitations such as the journalist's limited point of view, and possibly some deliberate distortions - the journalist or news company might deliberately put a spin on the story in order to boost ad revenue or for political reasons.

Sometimes you see this in business. Advertisers will try to warp your perception of their products in order to get you to buy them. Rather than showing you their product, they try to sell your on a number of other things like the fancy packaging, the jingle, or the belief that you would be happier if you had their product. I've had head hunters deliberately lie to me in order to trick me into accepting a lower paying job and on the other side, I've seen head hunters lie to employers about their candidates skills in order to shove them into jobs that they were no qualified to take on. ( in the end, the head hunter gets his fee for filling the job )



Volki

  • Hydlaa Notable
  • *
  • Posts: 879
    • View Profile
Re: The "I'm Bored" Conversation Thread
« Reply #260 on: May 15, 2013, 12:57:30 pm »
Lace dark dreadfull power inside him awakens now fully resultin his former self comin back lord of dark noble house shantae of mevango family lacertus shadowone mevango also knowed as darkblade of shadows

Illysia

  • Forum Addict
  • *
  • Posts: 2774
    • View Profile
Re: The "I'm Bored" Conversation Thread
« Reply #261 on: May 15, 2013, 09:48:59 pm »
I like how Agent K puts it in Men in Black:

"There's always an Arquillian Battle Cruiser, or a Corillian Death Ray, or an intergalactic plague that is about to wipe out all life on this miserable little planet, and the only way these people can get on with their happy lives is that they DO NOT KNOW ABOUT IT!"

The simulacrum, at least in terms of what our mind processes, is kinda a human defense mechanism that let's us get through the day without having to take on the grand sum total of everything we actually could be thinking about. As a species, I think we have an aversion to sitting down and dealing with things. I guess it's like epic procrastination or avoidance behavior on a species wide level.

Rigwyn

  • Prospects
  • Forum Addict
  • *
  • Posts: 2033
  • ...
    • View Profile
Re: The "I'm Bored" Conversation Thread
« Reply #262 on: May 15, 2013, 10:55:33 pm »
Another way to think about it is like this:

In order to think about something, you need to first make a representation of it in your head.  You can then work with that mental model. That model is probably far less accurate than we think it is but it serves the purpose. Ie. I can imaging you laughing only if I somehow represent you in my head first. I don't know what you liok like so I might temporary borrow a face from my memories and use that.

When you start to look at it like this, you start to realize just how crude our mental variables are.

Illysia

  • Forum Addict
  • *
  • Posts: 2774
    • View Profile
Re: The "I'm Bored" Conversation Thread
« Reply #263 on: May 16, 2013, 02:12:19 am »
True, but I suspect that is partially us not using the full capacity of our brains and partially us not making full use of the part of our brain's capacity we do have access to. Think of how much people tell you they are going to get you to "start thinking critically". We all know that most of the time it isn't very effective, but it must be necessary to keep trying to get people to think critically because apparently not everyone spends enough time thinking critically.

Rigwyn

  • Prospects
  • Forum Addict
  • *
  • Posts: 2033
  • ...
    • View Profile
Re: The "I'm Bored" Conversation Thread
« Reply #264 on: May 16, 2013, 02:25:45 am »
Well, here's another way to look at it.

I can't manipulate an Illysia within my head. I am forced to make a model of her and use that. My model of what an Illysia is nowhere near what a real Illysia is.. he'll, that's not even her real name... and for all I know the Illy could be male, shmale, neuter, or an AI program written in cobol by demented, masochistic programmers from the planet Abar.

This difference here is not due to mental limitations.


Illysia

  • Forum Addict
  • *
  • Posts: 2774
    • View Profile
Re: The "I'm Bored" Conversation Thread
« Reply #265 on: May 16, 2013, 02:33:27 am »
True, but if you met me in real life, your model would only be slightly more informed. That's just how our minds work; it almost doesn't matter how much information you throw at the model. We almost always seem to come back to an overly simplified model.

Rigwyn

  • Prospects
  • Forum Addict
  • *
  • Posts: 2033
  • ...
    • View Profile
Re: The "I'm Bored" Conversation Thread
« Reply #266 on: May 16, 2013, 04:30:00 am »
Agree :)

So if you wanted to bend the spoon, so to speak... how might one do it?   :sorcerer:


Illysia

  • Forum Addict
  • *
  • Posts: 2774
    • View Profile
Re: The "I'm Bored" Conversation Thread
« Reply #267 on: May 16, 2013, 06:01:55 am »
The best I could come up with would be taking the time to consciously look for over simplified models then work at applying more information. For instance, I was doing a creative writing exercise where you had to stop and analyze a sensation or object that you took for granted so that you could learn how to describe things rather than simply rely on stuff like "she felt wind".

So rather than just look at someone, take time to actually study their face a bit. (within the bounds of reason... we aren't making creepers here. ;) ) Do they have a heart shaped face, brown eyes? a slightly crooked smile?

But, that being said, you really can't afford to overcome the simplified model in too many places. Our lives are just too short for that; you would never get anything done. So you would have to stop and prioritize what deserves more attention and what doesn't.

Rigwyn

  • Prospects
  • Forum Addict
  • *
  • Posts: 2033
  • ...
    • View Profile
Re: The "I'm Bored" Conversation Thread
« Reply #268 on: May 16, 2013, 06:46:25 am »
Another option is to replace the model with a similar one.

If you are craving lemonade, but I don't have any, I might be able to sell you on something similar.. like orangeade, a pinapple ice pop, or something else that has whatever specific things that you are *actually* craving. You might really be craving a combination of bitter and sweet flavors but in your mind, the closes representation that you have at hand ( at that moment ) is the memory of an orange. I wonder sometimes if we do that .




Illysia

  • Forum Addict
  • *
  • Posts: 2774
    • View Profile
Re: The "I'm Bored" Conversation Thread
« Reply #269 on: May 16, 2013, 07:01:00 am »
That's basically what happens with marketing in generally, but it doesn't help you to be more aware of what you are actually getting at. I think learning to be more mindful of yourself and your surroundings would help though. Might make you more sales resistant at least. XD