RolePlaying in its purest form

[acraig]

Geez, I better get cracking...

I think PlaneShift has the *potential* to be these things but depends on any number of things.  I know there are members on the team that are totally dedicated to the cause and unless something very bad happens will be working on PS for years and years.  

Maybe we can find good ways to enforce RP, maybe we can\'t.  Whatever we come up with will be fun for *us* to play and we hope that will be fun for others as well.

[Davis]

Dark Ages had this really cool system. You character has a Legend, which contains important events, such as when you became a Necromancer, when you got married, who got pissed off at you, when they officially forgave you, what guilds you were in... and everything. A history of your character. A plain power-leveler who doesn\'t get into governent positions, never interacts with people, won\'t have much of a legend. This doesn\'t help RP much, but certainly enhances it.

Also, how about this: More interactive NPCs! Other games have crappy, boring NPCs. Dark Ages especially. I want to see Arcanum style NPCs!

And gaining XP by doing other stuff besides fighting! Like, spell research. Why shouldn\'t researching magic give you XP? Why should you have to fight?

And you should be able to post signs and rent or buy space. THis allows you to run stores etc., and if you say that is not RPful, then you are a dumbass.

And that idea where players can officially assign quests. We are as good, if not better than NPCs! What makes NPC\'s special? That they can play 24/7.

And something you dev people should remember. This is a free game, and one-of-a-kind. That gives you a lot of power to do whatever the hell you want, because us cheap-assed geeks with no job will still play it.

And high-level GMs should have a LOT of power to create cool quests, contests, etc. Although like I said, players should be encouraged to make quests and contests, etc.

And I don\'t think people should be banned for not role-playing. It will happen very rarely, and people will complain because it isn\'t consistant and it\'s hard to make calls on this. I think the nature of the game should encourage it.

And another cool Dark Ages system: Automatically lengthening stuff! Like someone said, using acronyms etc. becomes neccesssary, but look what Dark Ages does:
lol=Amusing
brb=Be right back.
wtf=What in Danaan\'s name...
int=Intellegence
etc. etc. etc.

And here\'s an extreme idea I had once, a long long time ago when I aspired to make my own MMORPG one day:
You have power based on your position in society. Remember when Gandalf was like \"You shall not pass!\" Something like that. Just direct manifestations of power based on your membership in organizations, etc. Lord of the Rings was undoubtably the best fantasy setting ever created. And everyone\'s power came from a larger whole. Sauron, while incredibly powerful, was still a servant of the Shadow. That is the source of his power. I don\'t think it should be as extreme as only 2 uberpowerful beings, but a place in society should grant very direct power. I don\'t suggest this should be in Planeshift; think about it though.
And religion, a similar idea. If you don\'t follow your god\'s wishes and ideas, your god does not give you his power. Nice, eh? Hard to implement, but possible. Again, I am not remotely suggesting that this be in Planeshift.

[Darkmoon]

Golby, my friend, I feel your pain.  

RP in today\'s online games is all but dead.  There is the occasional server/shard that is \"RP only\", but these are sparsely populated.  RP-ing is not everyone\'s forte, and some really suck at it.  Should everyone try anyway?  Absolutely.

I once tried to RP on \"that other game\", and I was resolutely ignored.  I created a char named Cobb Darg and was asking how to get back to Irongate, as the RS world was unfamiliar to poor Cobb.  The responses I got?  \"Dood, whats ur lvl?\"  \"U suxxor.\"  \"LOL!!1!  Lamer..\"  \"N00b!\".  No one was even remotely interested in playing along, they were \"getting leet skillz\" (mining).  It was pretty depressing that a self-proclaimed MMORPG had no RP at all.  

RP moments are among the most memorable in a game.

I come from a long tabletop RP history (20 yrs), and have found all online games lacking in RP element.  Makes me wonder why I even want to play online anymore.  I am hoping to bring the much-needed immersiveness to PS that will promote RP-style play.  To a large extent, I feel that graphics and code have restricted a person\'s ability to freely imagine when playing a game.  At a tabletop game, there are very little visual aids, and the player must \"see\" the world in his/her head.  I\'m hoping to bring some of this \"free imagining\" back to the game.  When someone talks about an adventure in PS, I\'d like to hear, \"we went to the Trepor\'s lair and snuck in, only to find it waiting for us.  We barely escaped with our lives!\", as opposed to, \"OMG, we pwn!  Ah, man, mom\'s yelling at me to take out the trash, bbiab.  You get that uber video card yet?  Brb, cellphone.  D00d, my girl gave it up last night!  I roxxors!!!\"  You can walk down you RL street and hang with your sk8tr d00ds and talk like that; why bring it into a game that has completely different setting?  The whole point of playing a game is to leave RL for a while.  RPGs allow you to assume a totally different persona as your char exists in a virtual world.

I don\'t think that people understand what a RPG character truly is.  It\'s not \"you\", nor is it an approximation of \"you\".  Your char need not like the things you like, nor should it be a version of \"your perfect self\".  If more people start thinking of RPGs like they\'re interactive stories and not \"just games\", then we\'d see proper RP players.  All the commercial games to date have gotten hundreds of thousands of people thinking in the wrong direction.  It\'s never been about who\'s got the best skills, items, or stats, but those games have conditioned those unfortunate people to think along those lines.  They\'ve been conditioned to think that if they\'ve got that uber sword +8 of flaming PK, that they\'ve somehow \"won\".  Can you \"win\" in a book?  Of course not.  Ideally, you immerse yourself in the story and relate to the chars as the story is told.  You can imagine yourself there, living the story with them (at least I can).  I\'ve never seen any book where the lead char went on and on about the cool sword he got from a monster drop or asked his friends what level they were.

So, yes, I\'m all for hardcore RP in PlaneShift, and will do what I can to make it happen.

[Saethan]

Also i love typing all funky! Nothing gets a buzz like runing around screaming \"EYE AM DUH L33t!!!1

If you\'re even remotely serious about that then you\'re just proving a reason why roleplaying should be enforced.

[Ice_Phoenix]

One day, walking down the street, she sees a warrior carrying a heavy bag with all his spare armor and weapons. He is too encumbered, and unfortunately a finely crafted silver long sword falls from his backpack. Now, Merlassia and her player have two choices:

a) Do what the player would do. \"That sword will boost my skills, I will be able to cut and slash and deliver more damage with it. I will pick it, and keep it.\"

b) Do what Merlassia would do. \"Oh boy! That poor man dropped his sword! I should help him and carry some of his weight for him!\"

So you say we must return to fixed dialogs??? And take away one of the most interesting features of PS - real talking to NPCs??? Hmmm... I don\'t get it.
In all RPG I\'ve played one thing that bothered me the most was...fixed dialogs.
E.g. You talk to a poor man in the street. \"Hey mister can you give me 5 gp???\"
-No
-Yes
-Make it 10! (gives you X exp.)
Anyone understands that #3 will give you some XP \'cause it\'s unusual! And then you don\'t RP you get XP!!!
If you\'re not trying to get XP then you can RP... And how many people can RP here??? Not very many I suppose...
If you\'re not offering fixed dialogs then you want to make PS community real experienced RPG players...but it\'s impossible! With newbies coming here every day...NO!!!
It all stucks to people not to Devs. \"It is all us who by our action and inaction shape this world...\"

[Golbez]

Exactly, Darkmoon! We are thinking alike on this one. I have also been left with a bitter taste on my mouth after attempting to RolePlay in an online RolePlaying game. I find it difficult to understand how much the genre has lost is esence, how much it was shifted into something that is so different from what it truly is.

And Ice Phoenix, I -NEVER- suggested that the dialogues should be limited to close choices. You completely took my example the wrong way.

I am talking about dynamic RolePlaying and you claim I demand fixed choices for character interaction. That does not make any sense.

What I intended to do was how, the player given a determinate situation, could choose to act the way the player would act (Which is not RolePlaying, because...well...you are not assuming a role), or he could decide to act the way the character would, with its unique personality and beliefs (That do not necessarily coincide with the player\'s).

As simple as that. Act \"IC\", or act \"OOC\". In a RolePlaying game, the first is the only option. Why? Read my posts again if you did not understand.

As another example, I had a roguish character in another text game. He was crafty and cantankerous, and did not mind lying and backstabbing. He had this outgoing, utterly extrovert personality. He was a rogue that liked to be in the spotlight, and had a twisted sense of honour.

I am completely different. I am too introvert to be as deceitful as this character was. Why did I choose him to be that way? Because that game needed more controversial criminals, and playing an outlaw has some interesting opportunities.

When given the offer to reveal some dark secrets that he had come across by doing some spionage and betrayal, in exchange of a dagger, he did not doubt in writing a book and giving it to the \'client\'.

Would I have accepted? No! I never ever revealed a secret that I had sworn to keep. But my character, he is a spineless vermin, he holds loyalty to noone other than himself, he would have revealed everything if it was profitable enough.

And yes, RolePlaying is ultimately the players\' choice, as I did state that in the very first post of this thread. Although the Devs do have their place in the equation.

[DevotedEternal]

Nice posts Golbez, I read all but the second long one (of which I only read half as my vision is starting to blur   ). I agree with you on all accounts. Think of Final Fantasy, or Chrono Trigger, or Breath of Fire... or any of those games. All characters are integrated into the story of the game somehow, and I for one find that it makes for a deeply immersive game and I personally would lvoe for Planeshift to give me that feeling only more dynamically and less pre-rehearsed. Like, what if you were playing Final Fantasy X, for example, and you enter the farplane and see someone talking to his deceased accquantance and the conversation goes as follows:

Living: hi! i just found super-fancy-crazy-sword+1!!!
(not very important when speaking to a dead friend of yours)
Deceased: awesome! i have this super-magic-axe-of-hitting-things-alot! i mean, i\'m dead, but it doesnt matter ill spawn in a few seconds
(that ruins the whole emotional connection that would be present if there was actual story-telling involved)
Living:niiiice.... did you see the football game on tv last night!?
(and it would continue like this, not nearly as immersive as the original experience with, say, wakka and chapu)

anyway.... my point is, an MMORPG is supposed to be based on the players more so then the NPCs, so if the game is to be as immersive and personal as an offline RPG then the players should work towards building that world, if the world isn\'t crafted by the players this way then the game fails as a Roleplaying Game and should be considered a \"Hack-N-Slash\" the other option would be to fill the game with tons of quests and in-depth NPCs....but then.... would that not defeat the purpose of an MMORPG? I don\'t know, it\'s 5:24 AM and I haven\'t slept yet, so my post probobly reflects that, as does the burning of my eyes.

 - Devoted

P.S. Yeah, I\'m back to stay, if anyone remembers me.

P.S.S. Do I atleast get half a hug? Please?

[Davis]

Originally posted by Ice_Phoenix
So you say we must return to fixed dialogs??? And take away one of the most interesting features of PS - real talking to NPCs??? Hmmm... I don\'t get it.
In all RPG I\'ve played one thing that bothered me the most was...fixed dialogs.
E.g. You talk to a poor man in the street. \"Hey mister can you give me 5 gp???\"
-No
-Yes
-Make it 10! (gives you X exp.)
Anyone understands that #3 will give you some XP \'cause it\'s unusual! And then you don\'t RP you get XP!!!
If you\'re not trying to get XP then you can RP... And how many people can RP here??? Not very many I suppose...
If you\'re not offering fixed dialogs then you want to make PS community real experienced RPG players...but it\'s impossible! With newbies coming here every day...NO!!!
It all stucks to people not to Devs. \"It is all us who by our action and inaction shape this world...\"

If you don\'t have fixed dialogues, you have something worse: keyword-based conversation.

And for every situation like you described above, there is a trick one. Like this one from r00nscape.
Beggar: Can I have 10 gold?
You: OK, here\'s 10 gold.
Beggar: Thank you!
You: Now don\'t I get a quest hint or something?
Beggar: No, I just need to eat

Of course, the use of the words \"quest hint\" show how anti-RP r00nscape is.

Anyway, it worked great in Arcanum. Each NPC had a reaction level, based on what you said. They would say different things based on their reaction level. Their initial reaction level is based on your race and Beuty statistic. When you talk to them, you have options based on your Intellegence and Charisma, often varying forms of the same basic things. Just about everything you could want to say is covered. If you want info, you can just ask them for general rumors. No, Arcanum is not an MMORPG, but it is definately a good RPG. Pick up a copy.

Maybe keyword-based conversations could be combined with fixed dialogue, like with an Ask About option like in Exile.

Devoted Eternal, I agree with you entirely, as shown in my support for player-designed quests. Why should NPCs be able to do anyhting PCs can\'t, except stay up all night?

Also, I think NPCs should have limited gold and items like in Arcanum. Infinite money and items makes it harder for players to sell items, is unrealistic, and causes massive inflation due to the main way of getting money being selling the same objets to a certain NPC. Inflation doesn\'t mean much in an MMORPG, with money dissapearing with players all the time, but should NPCs be the source of money in the world?

[Draklar]

I agree with Davis, fixed dialogs are much closer to rp than keyword-based ones.
For example let\'s take a bit dumb kran
the roleplayer would probably do some spelling mistakes on purpose and maybe would be saying some silly things, but while talking with NPC it would result with \"huh?\" answer (only thing to do is saying what you would say, not thy char).
Now when you have fixed dialogs, the player gets options depending on kran\'s inteligence, therefore it fully stays in-character.
another example of cRPG: Fallout, where thanks to stuff like that you were getting quests depending on what you specialize in.

[Golbez]

In an offline RPG, such as Fallout, it is a necessity if one wishes to add replayability to the game, to branch conversations with multiple choices for responses/reactions/comments and opinions. The player then picks the best choice according to his idea of the character. Is he rude? Is he well-mannered? Is he idealistic or pragmatic? Open minded?self-centered? We all make an image in our head of who our character is and how he acts.

It is a very good variant to the otherwise script and repetitive same script, such as for example in the Final Fantasy series. Although Square always added special scenes when certain character combinations were in the same party at a particular time. But still, the dialogues were always scripted and one could barely see a difference when replaying the game.

In an online RolePlaying game, limiting the dialogue choices to three or four options, is an insult to the gamer\'s intelligence. Sure, it could help the player to remain In Character, but think of all the insights and comments that add to the depth and credibility of the virtual world, but that cannot be voiced because of the system!

We would cross the land reading always the same questions and answers. How repetitive would that get? And extremely annoying! In a dynamic world, we want originality! We want variables! Unpredictability!

That is achievable by reducing the amount of NPCs to a minimum. To perform all those actions than no player is interested in performing (such as cleaning the streets, perhaps room clerks for inns, waiters and waitresses at taverns). The rest of the positions that are usually filled by an NPC that does nothing else but stand there, motionless, twenty four hours a day, could be given with no problems to trusted players.

That Captain of the Royal Guard that gives out quests to whoever walks by? Give such rank to a famous character who built his reputation as a legendary warrior.

The Mayor that takes care of the city economics and politics? Give that position to a player who is honestly interested in RolePlaying a politician (There are people like this, yes!)

There is a character for everyone, and some people enjoy RolePlaying one that has the same field of expertise than them. For example, I have met a lawyer that loves playing as a medieval prosecutor. I have seen medics that studied ancient medicine to play as a surgeon in the 16th century!

Hey, I briefly studied karate, and could apply that limited knowledge to RolePlay a fencing teacher! (Basic offense and defense strategy, and reading about fencing and sword wielding does make you understand that the basics of all martial arts is similar)

Am I an extremist? I may be. I dedicate a great deal of time to create my character. I write down ideas on my persona\'s past, ideals, expectations, and personality. And I draw sketches of his physical appearance and remarkable traits (scars, if any; unforgettable factions, and the like). I investigate on my characters\' field of expertise. I have done research on the relationships between a Squire and a Knight, I have studied some fencing theory. I have learned the laws of the gaming world by heart when playing a soldier in the army. I have read about fencing with a rapier in one hand and a main gauche in the other as it was a habit in France during the 17th century. Oh and I have enjoyed dearly going over the dueling codes of that era.

I do not expect players to immerse themselves the way I do. But I do expect for them to attempt to make their characters act in the most believable and integral manner they can.

Some are good RolePlayers, some are not. I do not consider myself a great one, I am merely a perfectionist. And it is not my intention to cast away those who have a big difficulty when RolePlaying (we all have inconsistencies sometimes), as long as they are trying, and that they are having fun, we all can enjoy the game!

But allowing the players to count with only a handful of choices when they want their characters to talk, it is ludicrous! How can we, with mere five choices, represent with fidelity what our character wants to say or do?

I prefer to trust the gamers\' capability of remaining In Character. With a little effort and practice, anyone can do so!

- Golbez

EDIT: Oh, about the suggestion of writing articles for magazines and websites (In the other thread I started)...Hehe, that amused me. But I do not think I am a gaming expert in the very least.

I am, however, attempting to push my English skills to a limit and learn more vocabulary and expressions by writing a novel. I doubt I will earn anything out of it, but I am enjoying doing so, and that is what matters to me.

Money comes and goes, pleasant experiences remain in your memory forever.

[Moogie]

Originally posted by Golbez
If you do not enjoy RolePlaying, what the heck are you doing in a RolePlaying game in the first place?

Personally, I play RPGs because I like the character customisation, skill-building, questing and leveling aspects of the genre, not because I enjoy Role Playing. AFAIK, no other genre includes all of these and is not called an RPG. That is therefore my answer to the above quoted.

[Golbez]

Problem is, all of the games that contain those features are self-proclaimed RPGs. However, not all of them are, if you take a closer look, RolePlaying games in its true meaning. They are only adaptions of the RPGs\' possibility of creating your own character and do with him as you please.

If \"Runescape\" is a RolePlaying game, I am the Queen of England. It is an action game, for there is no RolePlaying present.

Until skill-building and levelling are not seen as the sole and absolute purpose of a game, RolePlaying will not take place.

It is a problem of the players, who maintain their interest in the competitive aspect, and neglect the cooperative nature of the online RPG. In some cases, they even completely ignore it.

Also a problem is that no company in the gaming industry has realised of the way to divert the attention from this aspect. Although I think there is an explaination for that.

Why would they change their current system? It is a \"No lose\" situation for them. The players get addicted to the mindless levelling and astonishing graphics. The copies of the game are sold, and so are the expansions. The business flourishes, and the company moves on to other titles.

However, the PlaneShift team has no reason to possess that capitalistic mindset. They are in a position that allows them to distance themselves from that point of view and deliver quality RolePlaying.

You can play for the levelling, for the skills, for the joy of having a character physically different and with personalised abilities. But you cannot say that is RolePlaying, if that is all you do.

And this is a RolePlaying game, after all.

- Golbez

[Rulzern]

I\'m not quite sure about my position in all of this.

There is the debate on what is a role-playing game.
In most games you take a role, created either by, or for you. Different games focus on different aspects of the role, even in the simplest FPS games you choose your playstyle when considering your role, even if you have no choice of character, or never even see your characters name!

So you could say that \"hardcore\" RPG\'s inhibit \"real\" roleplaying by adding another layer between the player and the character.

Todays MMORPG\'s don\'t have the technology to create a non-inhibiting RP environment. Like, if i want to play the role of a up-and-coming artist, i would need the ability to paint, and go to school, and put my paintings on display and so on and so forth. As far as i\'ve seen, no MMORPG supplies this freedom to me yet.

The only possibility i see at doing that from a development view, is making a world, applying some rules and forces, and let the players create the game, something that would take a lot of design, a lot of coding, a lot of human monitoring, and a looot of processing power.

You can get closer to RP\'ing in some MUD\'s. But the question is still, what gives me the most immersion into my role, a \"real\" MMORPG with IC/OOC and such, or a \"fake\" MMORPG where everybody does what they want to?

Trying to incorporate a life into a RPG is just silly, because life is, let\'s face it, not very action-filled.

[Sunken]

I was thinking if Golbez had ever played a video-game RPG, do you had played hmmn... Final Fantasil for an example !? They don\'t roleplay the entire game, it\'s something more arcade more for fun and distraction, in the game some times they sad \"press triangle to look at the tower\" hay that\'s exactly what you hate huh !? SO there\'s a huge diference from a game rpg and a \"book\" rpg, try to don\'t misanderstood that. It\'s quite realistica a \"book\" Rpg, but a Game Rpg it\'s so cool se the battle efffects, se the exp. numbers going high, and you reaching a new level... the adventure is more actions, not something you heave to be seat front your pC waiting for three months for some day you see a herb gowing... or after weeks walking in the city, you get a disscu with some one and another player from nowhere calm down the situation... seriouly it\'s the \"dumbest\" thing i had read, no one wanna play something just to watch, thay want to realy PLAY something... do quest beat dragons, find relics, vanish the evil... no heave a social life infront a pc.

Ps. sorry by my bad english ( i\'m from Brazil)

[Draklar]

Originally posted by Rulzern
Trying to incorporate a life into a RPG is just silly, because life is, let\'s face it, not very action-filled.

yer incorporating life into a reality, where there\'s much more adventure and action. You are just being silly

oh, and Sunken: speak for yourself... I actually wanna play Roleplaying game for the roleplaying factor, not some leveling or whatever. And what\'s so fun about numbers going up?
another thing is that you should learn difference between cRPG and MMORPG. The first one might be about leveling and stuff, but rather simply finishing it. That\'s why I never understood why is it called \'rpg\'.
What do you understand by RolePlaying Game? Killing everything on your way? You can do that in Quake, is it called rpg? no!
Just by its name, it is game about playing a role. Seriously, what does it have to do with the numbers?